From the Crows' Nest

General Thomas Bussier [00:00:00]:
Foreign.

Ken Miller [00:00:10]:
Welcome to from the Crow's Nest, a podcast on electromagnetic spectrum operations, or emso. I'm your host, Ken Miller, director of advocacy and outreach for the association of Old Crows. You can follow me on LinkedIn or email me directly@hostthecrowsnest.org. thanks for listening. All right, we are coming to you from AOC 2024 here at the Gaylord Resort in National Harbor, Maryland. We are at on day two of our annual show and day one was fantastic, very successful. Of course, we released an episode yesterday. If you haven't had a chance to download that episode with General Anne Marie Anthony and John Knowles, please do so because it was a great conversation that really kind of set the stage for a great a great conversation that we're having throughout the week on great power competition and the role of ENSO in ensuring that we have the advantage in the electromagnetic spectrum from day zero.

Ken Miller [00:01:05]:
All right, so for today's episode, I am pleased to be joined by General Thomas Bussier. He's the commander of the U.S. air Force Global Strike Command and commander of Air Force's strategic air under US StratCom. I'll also be joined later by Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton. He is the Commander for the US Fleet Cyber Command, US 10th Fleet with Joint Force Headquarters Cyber Navy. I'll be sitting down with both gentlemen to talk about their keynote presentations to the audience here this morning on day two. And we also have a number of fantastic sessions. I'll be also going booth to booth on our exhibit floor, talking to some of our exhibitors, talking to to some of our guests walking the floor.

Ken Miller [00:01:49]:
You can view those segments by going to LinkedIn on the AOC page and listen to the live segments that we post up there as well. So without further delay, I'd like to welcome General Thomas Bussier to From the Crow's Nest here at AOC 2024. Thanks for joining me here on from the Crow's Nest. It's great to have you on the show.

General Thomas Bussier [00:02:07]:
Absolutely, Ken, thank you.

Ken Miller [00:02:09]:
All right, so you just wrapped up our opening keynote session for this morning on Day two here. And just to kind of help our listeners understand for those who aren't able to be here for the just kind of first question would be just tell us a little bit about your role as commander Global Air Force Global Strike Command and how that fits into the puzzle of our operational forces around the world.

General Thomas Bussier [00:02:31]:
Yeah, absolutely. So Air Force Global Strike Command is a, is the air component the US Strategic Command? Our command is 15 years old this year and it was created back in 2009 to have a single commander over the Air Force's forces for the strategic triad. So we have the privilege of maintaining the land leg, the ICBM leg, and the air leg, the bomber leg, for the nation and our allies and partners. We also have the capability and capacity, both on the ground and in the air, to command and control those forces for the nation. So I tell everybody we're in our terrible teens, we're only 15 years old, but we have a very important mission performed by really amazing airmen.

Ken Miller [00:03:17]:
So the theme for this week's show is EMSO within the context of great Power Competition. I can imagine when talking about great power competition, whether it's Indo, PAYCOM or Europe, it probably puts a stress on your ability to make sure that we have that global reach on either side. Talk a little bit about how the notion of great power competition affects how you go about your planning for your operational planning for these forces.

General Thomas Bussier [00:03:49]:
Yeah, so we do our mission every day. And that's one of the nuanced, what it offers a nuanced kind of misunderstanding of the nuclear triad. So every day, as we have since October 27, 1962, we have ICBMs on alert. Their Minuteman III weapon system is 54 years old. And we have airmen standing the watch today to provide that strategic deterrence, that underpinning of our nation's defense every day, like we have been for decades. We also have the capability and capacity within Air Force Global Strike Command for the nation and STRATCOM to provide the air leg. And that air leg is manifested through B1s, B2s and B52s. We have the capability and capacity to provide both strategic deterrence by generating bombers.

General Thomas Bussier [00:04:40]:
And we also have the capability to provide that long range strike capacity to the nation and to our allies and partners through bomber task forces. So that's kind of the manifestation of our global strike mission, conventional global strike mission for STRATCOM and the nation. I mean, right now, today, as we sit here and talk, Ken, we have bombers in the Middle east that are flying exercises, training, integration with allies and partners in combat missions for US centcom. We also have bombers in Europe that are there as part of a bomber task force, providing integration exercises with allies and partners in the European theater. And we are routinely tasked to provide both presence and conus to conus bomber missions in the Indo Pacific region. It's every day.

Ken Miller [00:05:22]:
It's every day. And so how has, how has MSO been integrated into your mission over the last 15 years since the creation? Because years Ago, we focused a lot on EW from an asymmetric standpoint. And now with the great power competition model that we follow, it becomes much more relevant to global strike. How has electromagnetic spectrum operations, whether it's traditional EW or spectrum management, how does that get integrated into what you do?

General Thomas Bussier [00:05:52]:
So I'd offer to you, when I was a captain, you know, I was trained as the wing Electronic Warfare officer, as a captain flying F15s. So the capability and capacity of electronic warfare and how we integrated at the tactical level, at the platform level was well known and exercised both in training, in operations, and how we educated our. Our airmen to be able to do that mission. I'd offer to you, that kind of waned. Right. As we transitioned into the war on terror and our last two decades of combat operations in the Middle east, we saw a decrease in the emphasis because we were primarily operating in a permissive environment. As we transition to the world we see it today and the new systems and capabilities, we're realizing that that permissive environment really doesn't exist anywhere now. So whether it's in space, the aerial layer, the terrestrial layer, in cyber or in sea, we have to account for the threats as we're seeing them in developing capabilities to counter them, developing our airmen, soldiers, sailors, marines and guardians be able to operate by, with and through those spectrums.

General Thomas Bussier [00:07:02]:
And like I said earlier, partnering with industry and allies and partners, developing the capabilities, the capacity capacities, the operational concepts, and then exercising them, it's not going to get any easier. And that's really why I think forums like this are so important to bring together allies, partners, our services in the Department of Defense, and our industry and academic partners to be able to develop capabilities that we need for the future.

Ken Miller [00:07:29]:
And that was the core part of your message to the audience today, was just bringing everybody together around the table, collaborating. What else did you communicate to the audience here today in terms of basically what are, or let me couch it another way, is looking forward over the next five, 10 years, what are some of the critical priorities that we need to be working on, both as a community as well as along with our military services, on what are the priorities for Air Force Global Strike Command, and how are you preparing your forces to meet the.

General Thomas Bussier [00:08:05]:
Yeah, so from a. I'll go small to big on that one, Ken. So from a. From an Air Force Global Strike Command perspective, we are eyes wide open on the requirements to integrate MSO into our capabilities and capacities. Our training, our operations, our exercises. It is embedded in the development of our new weapon systems. It's embedded in our concepts and development for the B21, the Sentinel weapon system, our new command and control platforms and our new operational schemes. So we are not walking away from the last two decades and saying that we didn't do well.

General Thomas Bussier [00:08:42]:
We're walking into the next two decades realizing that the world is going to present different threats. What we're doing, I think, very effectively is integrating with industry and acquisition professionals from a very small perspective within our portfolio portfolio to make sure we account for everything we're doing right now has to account for the electromagnetic spectrum, everything. And it transcends the domains. It's not just unique to like when I was a captain, we were really concentrating on protecting a platform during a specific operation against a specific threat or threats. Today, that threat vector is multi domain and it's global.

Ken Miller [00:09:20]:
And it requires interoperability, integration of that capability across all your systems and platforms that you put in. So you have to be able to talk to one another.

General Thomas Bussier [00:09:29]:
Exactly.

Ken Miller [00:09:29]:
And exchange that data.

General Thomas Bussier [00:09:31]:
And that is not sufficient. That is necessary, but not sufficient. We also have to be able to integrate with our fellow joint partners in the Department of Defense and probably just, if not more important, with our allies and partners.

Ken Miller [00:09:43]:
And we're going to have tomorrow, on day three, we're going to be focusing a little bit more on NATO. I'll be here with General Elizabeth Michelson from NATO, the Joint Force Command in Norfolk. Talk to us a little bit about how you go about partnering, strengthening our partnerships with our allies and partners overseas, particularly with NATO.

General Thomas Bussier [00:10:09]:
So we have a fairly long history of integrating with our closest allies and partners. The most recent, I'd say In the last 12 months, the most visible representation of that is our integration with our bomber task force missions. So in the last 12 months in the European theater, we integrated with 22 partner nations in various different venues and forums. In the Middle east, we partnered with four different nations in the last few months in demonstrations of interoperability and exercises and training. And in the Indo Pacific region, again, we've integrated with nine or more countries over the last few months, just again, providing that capability and capacity to show the US Flag, to integrate the bomber task force missions with our allies and partners and to provide that capability and capacity across the spectrum of the globe. But we can't do it by ourselves. Right. So that integration to understand the electromagnetic spectrum across the different domains with our allies and partners, it's absolutely essential that we do it together.

Ken Miller [00:11:17]:
So you mentioned how you have to account for this electromagnetic spectrum. Everything you basically and everything you do, whether it's requirements, capabilities, whatever. What are some of the capabilities that are most exciting to you? I know you were mentioning a few of the capability upgrades of B52 has been around for decades, obviously always continuing under upgrade. New capabilities are coming on board. What are some of the capabilities that you have your eyes on that are critical for your mission?

General Thomas Bussier [00:11:48]:
So most of the capabilities that we're developing for our mission space is obviously classified, but I will tell you, the strength of our younger airmen and their innovative ideas partnered with the industry are really developing some very exciting capabilities and capacities for not only the bomber leg and the bomber task force. It will provide capability and capacities that transcend specific platforms. There is a deep realization and understanding that we're no longer able to operate in a permissive environment and that we have to develop capabilities and capacities to affect operations in those different domains that we know are challenged right now. But I'm confident that our innovative airmen, our acquisition professionals, and our industry partners, if we work together, will come up with solutions that meet the we have the technology.

Ken Miller [00:12:51]:
So this week at the show, we have about 2,000, I think over 2,000 people here. It's the largest show we've had in decades. What can we do as an association representing the global community, both here in the US chapters abroad, working with our allies and partners as well. From the industry side, what can we do to help you in your mission?

General Thomas Bussier [00:13:13]:
I think one of the greatest benefits of forums like this is to bring together our academic partners in different, various different universities, our allies and partners in industry with our service leadership. So the key in my mind is convincing and demonstrating to service level leadership that have the ability to acquire and purchase and field capabilities. Kind of the fundamental requirements and responsibilities for services are to organize, train and equip and then to convince the services, coupled with our combatant commands and our leadership in the Pentagon that this is an area that we can't ignore.

Ken Miller [00:13:54]:
Well, General Bustier, I know you have a very busy schedule. I really appreciate you taking time to be here on from the Crow's Nest with me and talk a little bit about your message here at the show. And we look forward to working with you in the future. And thanks for joining me here.

General Thomas Bussier [00:14:10]:
No, absolutely, Ken. Thanks for letting me come on and have a chat with you.

Ken Miller [00:14:13]:
Great. Thank you very much.

General Thomas Bussier [00:14:14]:
Thanks.

Ken Miller [00:14:20]:
All right, at this time, I want to welcome Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton to From the Crow's Nest. Vice Admiral, thanks for joining me here on the show. It's great to have you here at AOC 2024.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:14:28]:
Yeah, Ken, it's great to be here. Really appreciated the opportunity from Hanks and the team and it's always great to talk to the crowd.

Ken Miller [00:14:33]:
And you've known Hanks for a long time, I take it. So really appreciate the more years I want to admit.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:14:40]:
Yeah, he. But he's been a mentor for decades.

Ken Miller [00:14:44]:
But I know you have a busy schedule, but I appreciate you swinging by here for day two of our show for both your keynote presentation as well as the podcast here. So can you just briefly just share what your message to the audience was in terms of EMSA within the context of Great Power competition from your perspective as commander of Absolutely, yeah.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:15:05]:
So as I mentioned during my talk, I work for multiple different four stars across the spectrum and I won't go through and reiterate all that, but every single one of them, from the CNO to Space Comm to Cyber Command, have prioritized war fighting capabilities that are absolute, absolutely fundamental, and inextricably linked to successful use of the electromagnetic spectrum. So whether it's the CNO's effort to fight from the mock or long range fires, or artificial intelligence, or it's the need for secure communications for assured command and control, protected computer systems, or multiple and redundant use of communications in space, EMS is absolutely fundamental to that. And as we move into 21st century competition and then potentially 21st century crisis and conflict, I think now more than ever, those electronic warfare, those EMS capabilities, those information warfare capabilities are now 100% required to improve both lethality and survivability of the modern force.

Ken Miller [00:16:12]:
So modern threats today, from a technology standpoint, evolving so rapidly, obviously security threats around the world evolving on a daily basis. You just read the news and there's something new happening every day that's going to put a stress on our ability to provide global security. Talk to us about some of the challenges that you face with integrating. You just mentioned, you know, today you have to integrate so much more around the electromagnetic spectrum than you ever probably had before because we don't have that advantage on day one. What are some of the primary challenges that you face to integrate those from across across the US Forces?

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:16:55]:
Well, so there's many. So begin with yes, it is multiple different capabilities and classification levels and communication pathways that all have to be brought together effectively to be able to deliver the right information at the right time, at the right place and in a denied or a contested environment and in a global distributed architecture with networked weapons. That is enough of a challenge even as it is today. But we have to realize that Even when we think we've solved that wicked problem for today, that our adversaries are thinking and adapting and innovating, and sometimes at an incredibly impressive rate. And this isn't just the prc. I mean, yes, the PRC is an incredibly capable nation, but it's the Russians, it's the Houthis. Even the Houthis, a non state actor, have demonstrated the ability that once they see a ttp, a tactic, technique and procedure, or a capability, or a communications path, or one is denied to them, that they're able to rapidly adapt and move to a different capability, a different tactic, the next time around. And so while it's incredibly difficult to integrate this across a massive infrastructure that's distributed, distributed globally, perhaps the bigger challenge is the need to constantly innovate.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:18:16]:
As Admiral Munch in Naval Forces Europe says, it's like a conveyor belt. Right? I mean, you, okay, you've solved problem, but that solution starts moving down the conveyor belt and you can't, you can't get emotionally attached to it because there's a new problem coming down the conveyor belt, and you better come up with a solution for that one as well.

Ken Miller [00:18:33]:
So, so when we talk about integration of cyber or other EW related capabilities. Sorry, usually there's a voice of God, this is light. So I don't know what's going on here. But when we talk about integration of cyber capabilities, EW and other related capabilities of that nature. You mentioned, obviously the dynamic challenges, particularly over in Europe, as we see in the war in Ukraine and so forth, is the use, the ability for adversaries or certain people to use to bring in commercial technology to make it more accessible, cheaper. You mentioned Houthis. They're able to bring that element into their rapidly evolving capabilities. How has that changed your mission in terms of how do you deal with that combination of commercial technology entering the battlefield and changing faster than a lot of times we can as a military force.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:19:33]:
Yeah. So that's a nuanced challenge. Right. So it gets you into a situation where you can't allow perfect to be the enemy of good enough, because you need to understand that you need to move fast because. Because the adversary is going to move fast. And so if you have a 70 or an 80% solution, you need to get that out there. But that has not been the tradition of great, great powers. Right.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:19:53]:
We always want to have the amazing technology, the one perfect solution. But what we've learned in the environment that we're in today, that again, it doesn't matter state, nation, state, Actor having massive funding or minimal funding, they're able to move and adapt very, very quickly. So it's that challenge of realizing that, yes, I need a capable, resilient, redundant capability to deliver things to my force. But if I wait and drive towards this perfect solution and I go through what is sometimes a torturous acquisition process inside the US dod, that's not going to be adequate. So we need to be able to move faster. We've got to have things like the rapid capabilities development office and other innovative solutions to be able to push commercial technology, rapidly developed and innovative, or sometimes even prototype technology, forward to the battlefield and then force an adversary to respond to that, learn from that, and then continue to advance that as it goes along. It also drives us, and this is true both in cyber and in ems, is that when we build these systems, you can't build a system that is 100% dependent on a specific communication path or a specific fabric that it has to operate on, or a specific operating system to run, you know, its computerized decision making. The systems have to be more agile.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:21:16]:
You know, we can't be running Things on Windows 11 three years from now. Right. And if the war, if the warfighting platform only works on Windows 11, that's not going to help us. Right. So it's a really nuanced problem.

Ken Miller [00:21:28]:
So one of the great attributes about AOC 20, the annual show here at AOC is the participation of the international community. We have a lot of partners here, NATO and other allied countries. Talk to us a little bit about your job in terms of partnering with our allies.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:21:42]:
Yeah, so allies and partners, this is across the spectrum. So yes, it's in the interagency, it's in academia, it's in the defense, in the defense industry as well. But you know, those international partners are absolutely critical to our success. So first and foremost, obviously the five EYE partners, we share the most with them and there's a great deal of openness and transparency and sharing because again, there's recognition amongst all five of us that we need to move fast and we need to move quick if we're going to continue to deter these adversaries. But you can't just sit there and say, oh, well, I'm just going to work with the five EYE countries because they have the most resources, perhaps the most academic support, the most of the biggest defense industries. A lot of times some of our smaller nations, these third party countries that we work with, certainly across NATO, across South America, across Africa, a lot of them bring significant capability and we need to Realize that we can't tell them exactly, hey, you should do this or you should do that. We need to be more open about what kind of game does that country bring to the table. And then how could we potentially benefit from the skill sets, the innovation, the creativity that they bring in that area instead of trying to, you know, be the puppet master and say, oh, well, country X, we need you to build this, or country Y, you have seem to have this unique capability.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:23:02]:
Why don't you work on that now? We need to let them innovate and develop at their own pace and through their own way. And then we need to be much more open and agile and creative in the thinking of how we take advantage of the incredible capacity capabilities that they bring across ems, across cyber, across space. We certainly don't have the corner market on all those solutions by any stretch.

Ken Miller [00:23:23]:
So what are some of the future initiatives that are being pursued under your command to strengthen Navy's capabilities in cyberspace? Electromagnetic spectrum that are keeping you up at night or charging you to keep going each day, and what are some of those things that take up a lot of your time and terms of pushing?

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:23:41]:
Yeah, so I think that, you know, the biggest, you know, one of the biggest things, especially in electromagnetic spectrum is again, not just, you know, not just nations like prc, certainly Russia, Iran, and then even all the way down to non state actors like the Houthis is their ability to shift from one level of the electromagnetic spectrum, one level of communications pathway, one architecture for ISR or battlespace space awareness, and shift to another one as soon as we're able to deny or disrupt or deceive that one. And, and then, you know, even, and then a recognition from all of them, hey, let's not wait for the United States or five I or NATO to get a, to get a foot up on this capability. They build one, they get it out there, and then they're immediate before that one's even working. They're already working on the next innovation, just as we do. And so that rapid innovation from adversaries and from competitors that challenges us significantly. Right. You spend a lot of time trying to close the loop and ensure a certain capability we have will work or a certain capability that they have will not. And if you're only worried about the one that's right in front of you, you're constantly going to be shooting behind the duck.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:24:49]:
So, so we do a lot of forward thinking about what, hey, what would we do next if this was where we were, where would we move to next and try to get out in front of that and be proactive. And as I mentioned during my, during my talk, the primary organization that I have to do that within my enterprise is the Navy Cyber Warfare Development Group. They work extensively with many of the advanced research labs, both in DoD and out in civilian academia. And those institutions are fundamental to our success.

Ken Miller [00:25:17]:
Now, just prior to having you on the show, I had the pleasure of speaking with General Bussier, who preceded you on the stage this morning, asked him the same question. So we're here, the global community, community here, EW community is here this week. What can we do to help you succeed in your mission?

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:25:34]:
Yeah, so I think it's, you know, that partnership that we talked about, right. We're inextricably linked. Right. The defense industry provides us with the hardware and the software that we need to meet war fighting requirements. We need to be open and transparent about what we're seeing today and what intelligence tells us will be the challenges of tomorrow. But we don't have all the right answers. Right. We need the defense industry to be innovating and being creative and being willing to fail fast and learn fast so that we can get out in front of where adversaries and competitors might be thinking.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:26:06]:
And that's certainly true with, with our academic partners. Right. They're the ones that have the time and the space to do some of this big thinking. And it's not just in technology. When we're talking about the academic partners, you know, we really need them to work on the policy side and push decision makers to think of policies in new ways because the pace with which the world is adapting and changing. You know, I was reading a paper the other day on artificial intelligence and you know, they talk about over a four year period, you know, and obviously this is sort of just a broad characterization. Artificial intelligence went from being a kindergartner to a high school graduate. And now, and now in a couple of years it's moved to, you know, about a college graduate.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:26:49]:
Right. And if you do that math right, that in the next three years it's going to be a PhD or beyond. And so now you have artificial intelligence gaining this massive understanding so rapidly and moving forward so quickly with those kinds of leaps in innovation and technology and then the resultant response across, you know, high end technology systems and use of electromagnetic spectrum. We need business and academia to constantly be looking way into the future and figuring out what not what's the next jump, what's two or three jumps down the line, where should we be spending time and energy?

Ken Miller [00:27:24]:
Well, and I Think traditionally, I mean, that's been one of our challenges is we look at what things are currently. And you just mentioned AI is taking exponential leaps. So we have to start thinking, have a better clear understanding of what we 2030, 2035 is going to be and start planning for that. But how do we do that in the way that we have? We are organized from a policy regulatory that it's just hard to get things through into the field from the lab.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:27:51]:
So it is. And that's why I say, you know, we need defense and academia and we need the DoD again to be brave and to be audacious and to look at what policy changes we can do to make that process more agile again. I finished Fleet Sync yesterday and the CNO talked about it. Hey, just because Chairman Xi said he wants his military forces to be ready by 27. And so now Xi has challenged the Navy, okay, we need to be ready by 1-1-27, because if that's what a competitor is saying, we need to be ready before them. Well, 27 isn't just a cliff. It's not going to stop there. Right.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:28:24]:
It's going to go, you know, to infinity and beyond from that point. And so we constantly need to be moving forward. And I think that the current construct is to be comfortable in, let's set a target, let's get to this point at a target, and then let's focus on achieving that. And it can very easily allow us to not think about the what's next. And so, yeah, we, within the government and then outside the government, we need to challenge ourselves in new ways to be more agile in our thinking.

Ken Miller [00:28:54]:
And you mentioned learning and taking risk. You don't learn unless you fail, and you don't fail unless you risk. So it's all, it's all inextricably linked, right?

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:29:01]:
But you know, you end up in a situation, you know, if you're, you know, if you're a prime or a subprime, that if your project fails, right? Then it's like, oh, my gosh, to, to get back in and to regain confidence. You know, what's that process look like? So, you know, we, you sort of disincentivize that kind of behavior of learn fast, fail fast. Right? It takes a lot of capital, it takes a lot of money to do that, but undeniably that's the most successful way. So. So we got. Again, I don't have the answer to it, but this is why I say we need defense and academic partners to be thinking about this in creative and innovative ways to drive that agility in that process to incentivize, learn fast, fail fast, develop fast, because the current construct just isn't going to work throughout the 21st century.

Ken Miller [00:29:43]:
And that's a very important message to get to the audience. Really appreciate you bringing that up. Vice Admiral Kaprandan, it's great to have you on the show. Really appreciate you taking I know you have a very busy schedule, so I don't want to delay you further, but really appreciate you joining me here on.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:29:54]:
The I appreciate the time, Ken. Thanks very much for the opportunity.

Ken Miller [00:29:57]:
Thank you so much.

Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton [00:29:58]:
Great.

Ken Miller [00:30:00]:
That will conclude this episode of from the Crow's nest on day two here at AOC 2024. We will be back tomorrow for our third and final daily episode for day three of AOC 2024, and I'll be pleased to be joined by Major General Elizabeth Michelson, Deputy Chief of Staff, Operations, Joint Force Command Norfolk with NATO. I'll also have John Knowles here in the studio again to talk a little bit about what he's learned throughout the week. If you have not had the opportunity to download our episode from yesterday, when I sit down with John Knowles, as well as Major General Anne Marie Anthony, please take a moment to do so. Also, we always appreciate hearing from our listeners, so if you can take a moment to review, share and subscribe to this podcast, we greatly appreciate it. Or you can email me directly@hostromthecrowsdesk.org that is it for today. Thanks for listening.