From the Crows' Nest

John Knowles [00:00:00]:
Foreign.

Ken Miller [00:00:09]:
Welcome to from the Crow's Nest, a podcast on Electromagnetic Spectrum Operations, or emso. I'm your host, Ken Miller, Director of Advocacy and Outreach for the association of Old Crows. You can follow me on LinkedIn or email me directly at hostromthecrowsnest.org thanks for listening. We are coming to you from AOC 2024 here at the Gaylord Resort in National Harbor, Maryland, just across the Potomac river from our nation's capital. We'll be coming to you each day with conversations with our keynote speakers and other special guests and we are also going to be on LinkedIn with segments from our exhibit floor featuring attendees and exhibitors. Today is Day one and I am pleased to have with me our opening keynote speaker, Major General Anne Marie Anthony, Director of the Joint Electromagnetic Spectrum operations Center, the JAC under US StratCom. I'll also be joined for analysis by friend and colleague John Knowles, Editor in chief of AOC's Journal of Electromagnetic Dominance. So without further delay, I'd like to introduce Major General Anne Marie Anthony.

Ken Miller [00:01:13]:
General Anthony leads the Joint ENSO center, the jec, which is based out of Offutt Air Force Base, Nebraska. She is responsible for the establishment, maintenance and assessment of deployment certification standards for Joint Forces MSO readiness, the identification and assessment of the Joint Forces MSO deficiencies, and opportunities to advance the mission and providing risk assessments of the Department's readiness. Additionally, she oversees the Joint Electromagnetic Warfare center, the juke, and the Reserve Officer Training Corps Program and spent most of her active duty career in the 38th Reconnaissance Squadron where she flew on the RC135 rivet joint. Prior to her current position, General Anthony was the Mobilization Assistant to the Director of global operations in US StratCom. So without further delay, I'd like to welcome Major General Anne Marie Anthony to AOC 2024 and from the Crow's Nest.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:02:07]:
Well, good morning Ken. It actually it's great to be here. I can't believe it's been three years. Three years and I am really excited here through the podcast and then through my keynote to talk about all of the progress we have made in the past three years when it comes to electromagnetic spectrum operations.

Ken Miller [00:02:25]:
Well after we interviewed a few years ago, your interview was just rocketed on like everybody appreciate everything that you said Loudoun. So I've been wanting to get you back on the show and schedules are crazy and everything. So when I saw you that you're going to be here kicking everything off, I'm like we this is a must, must do interview. So I really appreciate you coming by here. So just to get started, we have a lot of information to cover. We don't have that much time. But I want to really kind of, for our listeners who are some of many of who AOC members, some of them not just to level set everything and talk a little bit about what is electromagnetic spectrum operations from your perspective and what you're trying to achieve as the director of, of gemso.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:03:13]:
So actually, that's a really great starting point because once you understand what electromagnetic spectrum operation is and how we define it in the Department of Defense, it makes sense of everything else that we're doing. And so what electromagnetic spectrum operations is, or as we like to call it, mso, it is a combination of electromagnetic warfare and spectrum management. And so there was a recognition, gosh, a. About eight years ago, you had your electromagnetic warfare community, they were out there jamming radars, you know, thinking very offensive electromagnetic attack. And you had an entirely other separate community of spectrum managers, and they were, you know, assigning frequencies, managing spectrum access. But the two communities didn't talk. And if you really think about it, spectrum management, that's maneuver and electromagnetic warfare is fires. And when you're doing a military operation, you want to bring maneuver and fires together.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:04:11]:
And so that's what we did. So right now we have spectrum managers and electromagnetic warfare officers working side by side to say, how do we maneuver in the spectrum to a place that's to our advantage, while on the other side denying the adversary that same advantage within the spectrum.

Ken Miller [00:04:28]:
So when we talk about maneuvering this in the spectrum, because this was a key point in the DoD EMS superiority strategy that came out a few years ago, four years ago now, five years ago, this, this idea of a maneuver space was kind of. It's talked about, but is novel in the sense of like, in terms of putting it into official DoD document. Talk to us. Can you talk a little bit about maneuvering in the spectrum from a spectrum management standpoint? Because, you know, for decades we could, we could maneuver in the spectrum. We had the advantage, we had the capabilities to kind of half superiority when we wanted. Today's world is a lot different. Spectrum is increasingly complex. So how has that changed the perspective of leadership in terms of the importance of figuring out how to maneuver in this operating space?

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:05:21]:
So I would argue that we have always been maneuvering through the spectrum. The difference is now in the speed in which we need to do the maneuver. So when you have spectrum superiority and you're just excited, expect it. You have that permissive spectrum environment. If you go and you try to do your mission and you're like, that radio frequency didn't work, you can go back to the drawing board, you can tune your radio to what you want. You don't have to do a lot of coordination or maneuver around all of the other signals that are there. So when we talk about maneuvering through the spectrum and the new way that we look at it, it really is that speed and agility, going faster, doing it in a more reactive sort of manner to make sure that you're able to achieve those mission objectives.

Ken Miller [00:06:07]:
So. So to help us understand now, as we were talking earlier, I'm one of the rare breeds of the old crows. I've. I have never served in the military. I've always wanted to, but never did, and I've never served in the defense industry. So I always kind of look at things from the outside in. One of the challenges is always trying to figure out where everything is and how it's organized. And so I was wondering if you could kind of from GENSO within STRATCOM talk a little bit about where things are at organizationally and the structure so our listeners kind of understand where you're at in terms of advancing ENSO within STRATCOM and of course across the DOD.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:06:50]:
So you mentioned earlier we had the EMS security strategy that was set sign in September of 2020. And I always like to say a strategy is only worth the paper it's printed on if you don't have a way to realize that. And that's where the EMS Superiority Strategy Implementation Plan comes in. That was signed by Secretary Austin of 20 in 2021 and it gave 124 tasks to the Department of hey, go out and do. And one of those tasks was directed to StratCom and it was to set up a two star direct reporting organization to Commander STRATCOM to carry out the Joint Electromagnetic Spectrum Operations mission. And so through that we have set up the Joint ENSO Center. I am the director of the Joint EMSO center and we officially became an organization in July of 2023. And we are taking those expanded authorities and responsibilities that were laid out in the Unified Command Plan through a SECDEF action memo and in the implementation plan to get after EMS superiority for the Joint Force.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:07:58]:
So what does that. So we're at the Joint Force level. So we are in charge of educating the Joint Force, training the Joint Force, assessing how well are we doing, where do we need to make improvements? Is it improvements in capability? Is it improvements in tactics, techniques and procedures? All of this then we relay to the services, because of the services are in charge of organized training and equipping. So they're able to take that information and say, maybe I need to train a little bit more here. Maybe I need to invest here in this capability. So it really provides a great feedback loop to ensure that we are always maintaining that EMS superiority.

Ken Miller [00:08:38]:
So what are some of the challenges that you face on a daily basis when it comes to this mission? And, of course, implementing some of the changes that are taking place? Obviously your job is never done. I mean, with the way that the world is, there's always room. You outlined your education, training and assessment. Those things never end. And if you do end any of those, it's not like you can pick it up where you left off. So you have to constantly keep your foot on the gas on this. So what are some of the challenges that you face in terms of managing, protecting, getting this mission moving in the right direction?

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:09:18]:
So first, even though we'll call them challenges, I want to say that nothing is insurmountable, so we are actually moving forward. I think the first thing is to understand, you know, we opened up the podcast with what is the definition of electromagnetic spectrum operations? And that is not being trained. So it's getting that education message out of what we're doing. And it's interesting, when I do go and I talk to folks and I say, hey, this is why we're looking at it this way. They're always. They're like, oh, I get it now. And so, you know, you have somebody else that understands. So we really are tackling the education aspect of it, building curriculum and getting out to train the Joint Force operator.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:10:04]:
I think another challenge, too, is when, you know, you take a. You have a new definition. You're taking electromagnetic warfare and spectrum management, putting it together, that means policy and doctrine and instructions, and everything needs to be updated to reflect that new reality so people know what they're supposed to be doing. And this is a lot of this is just, if you think about it, it's just very foundational work. And then while we're doing all this foundational work, we're out there working with the service to make sure that when they are, you know, flying in their aircraft, they're doing their ground maneuvers, that they are getting the proper training and the property contested and congested electromagnetic spectrum. So doing everything in parallel, I would say, would probably be the biggest challenge. But again, nothing is insurmountable.

Ken Miller [00:10:53]:
So want to kind of step back and talk a little bit more about mso traditional understanding of ENSO and its importance in military operations. You know, throughout this entire week, we're always talking about how we have to achieve superiority, sustained superiority, project superiority in the spectrum. And yet it's, you know, the environment is always changing. What are. Talk a little bit about the importance of why we need to succeed in this effort to establish DJEMSO across the military force.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:11:34]:
So I think another kind of important underlying definition, I would say, is that we do not talk about the electromagnetic spectrum as a domain because it is used by all the domains. It is pervasive. And so if you are not able to control the spectrum, you're not going to be able to do your command and control that you need to do. You will not be able to deny the adversary that same ability to do command and control. And so success and EMS superiority really underpins all military operations. Every. You know, and, and I also like to say most. Most folks, they say, well, gosh, that's such a nebulous concept if you're not involved in it.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:12:22]:
And I. I say, well, when you go out and use your cell phone, you're using the electromagnetic spectrum. You know, you text one of your family members to find something out that's using the electromagnetic spectrum spectrum to get information that you need. And so when you're doing a military operation, we use radios, we use radars, we use satellites, and all of that uses the electromagnetic spectrum. So it's just a foundational need.

Ken Miller [00:12:46]:
Yeah. And I think when, you know, decades ago, when I first started looking into this issue, when I was on Capitol Hill and stuff, everyone always referred to EW at the time or EMSO as kind of the redheaded stepchild in military. No one really wanted to get control of it or really understand it or make it a foundational element to their operations. That's changed now. I think it's pretty clear from top on down from Secretary of Defense all the way, that the importance is reinforced on a daily basis. Talk. Can you share a little bit about. In your journey through this? You've been with STRATCOM now for four years.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:13:26]:
I have been doing this mission with STRATCOM since March of 20. 20.

Ken Miller [00:13:30]:
20.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:13:30]:
Okay, so a long time.

Ken Miller [00:13:32]:
So long time. Yeah. And a lot has changed, even in that time. So can you share a little bit about your journey in terms of what you've seen with the importance of MSO to. Not to our operations, but also from the leadership and understanding it and how that's being. How that's important, that is to reinforce your mission.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:13:52]:
So I Think the biggest thing that I've seen is when I first came into STRATCOM and I was doing the electromagnetic spectrum operations mission as a one star general underneath the J3. So I was not a direct report to Commander Stratcom for this mission area and I would go do office calls and visits and when people always very welcoming, we would always have a good conversation. But it was really me more on transmit. It has gone 180. So now when I do office calls they're robust discussions. Where do we need to go? How do we need to partner? This is what we're doing. What are you doing? Okay, that's great, you know, sort of thing. So it's really the.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:14:41]:
It went from not very many people knowing about it to. To leaders absolutely know about it and they are already doing their own things and we're just making sure that we're all doing it in concert together.

Ken Miller [00:14:55]:
So moving, moving forward, what are a couple of the. In speaking about reforms? What are some of the reforms that are currently underway that you're working on that are really important that you find are really important to the future of the mission? What are some of the elements that we as a community should be tracking and making sure that we understand so that we're not. We're never guilty of relaying wrong false information or doubt or anything because we were just talking earlier. I mean there's a lot of, there's a lot of misunderstanding out there. So what are some of the things that we need to be tracking as a community?

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:15:31]:
So I don't. This isn't necessarily a reform but I would, you know, like your audience to know about and to think about is really this effort behind dynamics spectrum sharing. And so I mentioned the cell phone usage earlier. You know, 15 years ago you didn't have everybody walking around with a cell phone, you know, surfing the Internet, using gps, Google Maps. And so you've had an absolute explosion of the average citizen using the spectrum on a daily basis. And so what this means is it really brings up the congestion of the spectrum. You know, back in the 70s, you know, we had some television stations, you had some radio stations, but really the government the primary users, that's not the case anymore. And so what we need to start looking at is how do we dynamically share the spectrum with our industry partners.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:16:22]:
And so we at StratCom in concert with DOD, CIO and NTIA are committed to finding a dynamic spectrum sharing solution. As a matter of fact, at StratCom we are using our UARC, the National Strategic Research Institute to do research into different ways to dynamically share the spectrum, because we really see that as the, the wave of the future. So if there's any researchers out there that are listening to this particular podcast, and that's an area of interest, you know, please. I think that dynamic spectrum sharing really is the way of the future.

Ken Miller [00:16:59]:
And, and that's fantastic to hear because I know that it's been really hard to get progress in, in that field with dynamic spectrum sharing that they've been. We've been talking about the need for this for years and I think the strategy provided that forcing function for it, but still a long way to go. I know that there's some, there is some legislation and the this year 25 NDAA that, that works on that a little bit and that's something that we're continuing to refine. But it seems to be one of those elements that when we're talking about the marriage of spectrum management to ew, we have a pretty good handle on EW from a fires perspective. But that management, that bringing those communities together, that's an area where we need to kind of focus our attention.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:17:45]:
It's just a mind shift. And again, we have to really realize that for 30 plus years we had unfettered access to the spectrum and so we were able to be a little bit more methodical in how we managed and maneuvered through the spectrum. That's not the case now and won't be the case in the future. And with dynamic spectrum sharing, I would say that we have moved past the talk. There are active research efforts going on and we have a great country full of innovators and people who have creative ways to look at technological advances. I'm sure that we're going to come up with something that helps both industry and the Department of Defense and all the spectrum users, as a matter of fact.

Ken Miller [00:18:31]:
So, so in our. As our time is winding down, you're getting ready to go in to provide our opening keynote session here at AOC 2024. What is your, what is your message to the audience and what are, what are some takeaway action items that you want to leave with the audience here this morning?

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:18:54]:
So I have three things that I'd like to get across to the audience. The first of all is what is the joint MSO center, you know, level set folks on that? The second is I'm really going to talk about a lot of the progress that we have made over the past year and a half since we've stood up and really since the beginning since the EMS superiority strategy was signed. And then third, really challenging the group looking towards the future on how do we use again, how do we get to dynamic spectrum sharing? How do we use artificial intelligence and machine learning to help in this particular mission space so we can keep advancing electromagnetic spectrum operations and EMS superiority?

Ken Miller [00:19:36]:
Well, Major General Anthony, it's always great to talk with you and congratulations on achieving the return guest status of from the Crow's Nest. Hopefully this will be just the second time and there'll be more times in the future. We'd love to be able to receive these updates on a regular for our listeners are always wanting to hear what's going on there going on in the Jack and Stratcom and your leadership. So really appreciate you opening up to opening up AOC 2024 and joining me this morning here on from the Crow's Nest.

Major General Anne Marie Anthony [00:20:07]:
Well, thank you. It's always a pleasure to be here, Ken.

Ken Miller [00:20:10]:
Appreciate it. Thank you. All right. I'm pleased to be here with my next guest, friend and colleague, John Knowles, editor in chief of AOC's Journal of Electromagnetic Dominance, the Jed. John, great to have you here on from the Crow's Nest once again. Thanks for joining me.

John Knowles [00:20:27]:
Thanks for having me on, Ken. It's always good to be back.

Ken Miller [00:20:29]:
All right, so we're in day one of AOC 2024. Here we just I just had the chance to interview Major General Anne Marie Anthony. Great, great opening speaker for our show this week. She just gave her opening remarks just to get us started. What are some of your what's some of your instant reaction to what she had to say to the attendees here at the show on day one here at AOC 2024.

John Knowles [00:20:54]:
I think one of the things that the most important thing she did was to talk a little bit more about the implementation plan, the EMS Security Strategy Implementation Plan, which was announced in 2021. And it's again, I'm an impatient guy, so it's had a very slow rollout in my book. If you're talking about getting ready for great power competition, we need to move faster. They're doing a lot of good things at the Joint MSO center, the jec, and she's leading that. And I think that's great. I always question, is it enough? Are we going fast enough, far enough? But they're doing, you know, they're getting more MSO into some of the joint exercises. That's great for readiness. But I always question, you know, are we again, is it enough? Are we doing it fast enough?

Ken Miller [00:21:39]:
Well, and I do Think there's a challenge here with the services getting the. Getting the services on board with the. In the same. Moving in the same direction as the joint staff and StratCom because the services still have the man trained and equipped responsibilities, as General Anthony pointed out. But it's hard to sometimes get the services on the same page and to do exactly what they need to do at a joint level.

John Knowles [00:22:06]:
Yeah. I think there's a gap that I think we've always acknowledged, which is between the services that are focused on their operational concepts and the co comms who are responsible for integrating what they provide. And that's. I think some of the big questions I have is how do you either empower the JEC to have more authority to help fill those gaps and drive that, or light a fire under the services, which has never worked to get them to fill those gaps. But it has to do with many of the things she talked about up there. So readiness, manpower, training, education, professional development, even relationships with allies. There's so many things that the services could do more of to help fill that space between what they've traditionally done and what the cocoms, what the warfighter needs. And she's trying to balance that from the warfighter end.

John Knowles [00:23:06]:
And the services don't have anything really, because there's four of them, five of them really almost count Marines doing their own thing, developing MSO in support of their own operational concepts. But it's a joint fight. Yeah. And so somebody on that side of the man trained equip has to really start gluing that together better.

Ken Miller [00:23:25]:
And really, at the end of the day, it's the perspective of MSO from. It's MSO from the perspective of the. Of the joint warfighter. That's going to matter in battle versus how they were brought along in their individual service.

John Knowles [00:23:42]:
Yes.

Ken Miller [00:23:42]:
When they fight. So how do you bridge that gap?

John Knowles [00:23:45]:
Exactly. It's that adaptation that, what I call it, the twist that you make into the operational world. And when I look at the show here, especially the symposium agenda, if you think back 10 or 15 years to what we were talking about then and how we were thinking, we were very much closer to things like individual capabilities and systems like weapons systems and things like that, when I look at the agenda here, and she touches on it too, is it's really about process. The things that we're trying to tackle now are things like the electromagnetic battle management joint to really get a common picture out there in the battle space and understand how to synchronize things like that, which is what she's talking about, you know, thinking about alliances and how do we, you know, we have exported incredible amounts of capability to the. To our allies. And if we don't coordinate with them, if we don't train together, if they're not on the same page as us in the ems, which it will become readily apparent if we don't. And when you think about Great power competition, this is not. I can dial it up, dial it down for the operation.

John Knowles [00:24:51]:
I'm in it, I'm in the fight, and I can't really control the pace of it. And China is not Russia, China is going right at our what they would call a reconnaissance strike complex. They're going at the weak underbelly. Right now, to them is the ems. It's our nodes, the way we connect. It's not just cyber, it's the connections in between the data links, the sensors out there, they're going to go right at that. It's an EMS fight and we have to be ready for that.

Ken Miller [00:25:23]:
So the theme of AOC 2024 this week, week is electromagnetic Warfare, Spectrum Warfare, the Great Power Competition. So you mentioned what that means. Looking forward to this week. We have a number of great keynote speaker sessions, spotlight Sessions. We have 170 exhibitors here. What are some of the questions you hope to have answered by the end of the week? Or what are some of the topics or issues that you think we need to be addressing this week? When the global community is all here.

John Knowles [00:25:59]:
At AOC 2024, I think one of the new ones is with the new administration coming in, we really have to make sure that we understand how our alliances work, how our security partnerships work. I think that's going to be important. We need to NATO and especially in the Western Pacific, creating something like another NATO out there. Those are things we have to figure out how we're going to fight together. Because these Great power competitions are against large monolithic states. And China is really developing in the ems. They may not have a lot of experience, but boy, they. So I'd like to see us overestimate the problem there and react to that rather than get into a fight and say, oh, okay, well, we got to do this and we got to adapt that.

John Knowles [00:26:52]:
And so again, we're seeing more discussion of processes. We're seeing a lot of discussion about, again, even AI and things like that, which we think is a capability, but really it's adding power to our. How do we develop that? I guess the biggest thing I want to see is us discussing our systems and processes. And by system. I don't mean like a weapons system. I'm talking about the acquisition system, the way that we do things as a community and how we can fast track things and get that to work. So that's what I'm really hoping to get out of here, is that again, going back 10 years, we wouldn't have talked about this, but that higher level competition to get ready for a much more significant adversary than maybe we anticipate we should be getting ready for something really serious. Great.

Ken Miller [00:27:41]:
Well, John, thank you so much for joining me here and for your quick analysis of AOC 2024 on the front end of the show. I'll have you back on Friday for our daily episode then to take a look back and see have we addressed those serious topics throughout the sessions this week. So I greatly appreciate you taking time. I'll let you get back to your job here this week. And I really appreciate you joining me here on from the Crow's Nest.

John Knowles [00:28:07]:
Thanks, Ken. Looking forward to Friday.

Ken Miller [00:28:08]:
Thank you. That will conclude this episode of from the Crow's Nest. Coming to you from AOC 2024. I'd like to thank my guest, Major General Anne Marie Anthony and John Knowles. We have a great show for you throughout the week. We'll be back tomorrow. Thursday, December 12th. I am pleased to have with me General Thomas Bussier, commander of U.S.

Ken Miller [00:28:31]:
air Force Global Strike Command, and Vice Admiral Craig Clapperton, commander of the U.S. fleet Cyber Command. As always, please take a moment to review, share and subscribe to this podcast. We always appreciate hearing from our loyal listeners. That's it for today. Thanks for listening.