From the Crows' Nest

Ken Miller [00:00:09]:
Welcome to From the Crow's Nest, a podcast on Electromagnetic Spectrum Operations or EMSO. And this is our AOC Members Only and Subscriber Edition Bonus Edition. I'm your host, Ken Miller, Director of Advocacy and Outreach for the Association of Old Crows. You can follow me on LinkedIn or you can email me directly at host@fromthecrowsnest.org. Thanks for listening. All right, my my special guest today for today's discussion is Lisa Frugé Cirilli. She is US DoD Customer Customer Requirements and Advocacy — I knew I'd screw that up. Lisa, I'm so sorry — US DoD customer requirements and advocacy for BAE systems. And she lives down in Warner Robbins near Warner Robbins Air Force Base and so wanted to have her on the show because there's a lot of there's a lot going on down in that area.

Ken Miller [00:00:59]:
So I thought I'd have her on the show to on as well as to continue our month long appreciation for the accomplishments of women in our field. I wanted to have Lisa on the show to share her thoughts on where you know some of the challenges and obstacles facing the US Defense moving forward. Before I get to that, a few housekeeping items. First of all, if you're in the audience, thank you for joining us. Obviously any any AOC member or subscriber is free to join the the recording of these episodes in our live virtual studio audience, which gives you the chance to participate in in the discussion through the chat by asking questions, sending your comments or topics that you want us to discuss so you can see us, but we can't see you. So please take a moment to introduce yourself in the chat if you'd like. We don't give your name over the air, so you know there is an anonymity to this. So feel free to just share your your thoughts and comments and we'll incorporate them into our discussion.

Ken Miller [00:02:04]:
Also, for the month of March to to celebrate Women's History Month, we are making all from the Crow's Nest podcast this month free to everyone, including our subscription. So if you are listening to this subscription and you're not an AOC member or a subscriber, you can do so till the end of March. But we hope that you'll listen to this these bonus additions and you realize that this is a a benefit and a value that you want to take part in in the future and you'll either subscribe for $2.99 a month to AO to From the Crow's Nest or you can join AOC and it is part of your member benefits as well. And finally, we are currently conducting a listener survey. So at in the show notes, please take a few moments to go to the link in the show notes and fill out the listener survey. This is very important for us to kind of keep tabs on how our audience is, you know, approaching our show, what we can do to improve it, some topics we want to cover in the future and a lot of other a lot of other matters that the survey helps us understand. So take a moment to fill that out. If you complete the survey and you submit your email, we you are eligible to receive a free from the Crow's Nest T shirt and we will send that to to you upon completion of the survey.

Ken Miller [00:03:28]:
So with that, I'd like to introduce my guest again, Lisa Fri. And again I'm going to try Lisa, I'm going to try to do your your title again properly. You are a U.S. doD customer requirements and advocacy for BAE Systems electronic systems Division. Thank you for joining me here on From the Crows' Nest. It's always great to chat with you.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:03:48]:
Always good to be with you, Ken. Always good to chat as well. So you did find the, the easy term of that is just business development, but the other sounds much better.

Ken Miller [00:03:57]:
Well, I, I sometimes have to check myself because when I write down people's titles I'm, I have very bad handwriting and I, you would think that I could solve this by typing it out properly and I don't, I just kind of, you know, do it freely and I or, and so these long titles generally I'll mess up because I'll write something down wrong. So I appreciate your patience. But anyways, so thank you for joining me. Wanted to kind of kick off the discussion here while we have some of the audience hopefully again contributing topics topics or questions that we can discuss the, the, the thrust of what we talk about on the show here for this these bonus episodes is just kind of current affairs, current events and so wanted to go and get it started on. Give us a glimpse of the def. Give us a glimpse of Warner Robins Air Force Base, the work that goes on there, the community down there. Because I think you have a very big show coming up next week down there, the annual Dixie Crow Symposium. It's a, it's a great show and one of the fascinating things I find whenever I go down there is a lot of times when you go to military bases, you interact with a bunch of people who are temporarily assigned there and they know that in a couple years they're going to leave and there's no routes to that area.

Ken Miller [00:05:17]:
But when you go down to Warner Robbins, you go in, you. You become a part of that community down there. There's a lot of people that stay there. There's a lot of people that come back there. It's a much different dynamic than you get on a lot of bases. So talk to us a little bit about the work that goes on at Warner Robins and how that fits into the EW community at large.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:05:37]:
Absolutely. So the Electronic Warfare Directorate of Excellence actually lives here at Robbins Air Force Base. So you have electronic warfare, you have T2ISR, you have automatic test systems, support equipment in vehicles. There also is the newly stood up 9 50th Spectrum Warfare Group that just joined us a few months ago. And there is so much that goes on here, both domestically and foreign, military wise. And I would have never understood any of this if I hadn't really come in on the ground floor back in 1997 when I moved here. And it's amazing. There are 22,000 people that actually work on Robbins Air Force Base.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:06:32]:
There are about, of course, the most of them are civil service. There are about 5,000 that are uniform, 14,000 civilian. And then you have about 2,500, what I call captive contractors. They're in direct support of those program offices. So 22,000 people. We are the largest industrial complex in the entire state. And talking with the AOC and understanding the importance of the electromagnetic spectrum for the United States Air Force, this is one of the main hubs. This is unbelievably one of the main hubs.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:07:14]:
And every day, every day in Middle Georgia is Armed Forces Appreciation Day. And not only do we have active duty Air Force, we have Air Force Reserve Command that resides here, and we have the Air National Guard here also. So we have three services all in one location, leveraging all the strengths. And when you talk about community, there's a huge community force that supports this entity. And you already mentioned that a lot of people, they retire here and they stay here and they become civilians or the contractors. And it's just. It's just a great place to raise a family and to support the Air Force.

Ken Miller [00:08:03]:
So. So before we talk a little bit, just about the show next week, just to kind of give people a sense of what's going on, because there's, there's some unique aspects to your annual show that a lot of people don't always get, and that's the com. The way that it's evolved over time. And it kind of shares the stage with other things going On I wanted for our listeners who may not be, you know, dealing in EW on a daily basis fully, so they might not understand how everything fits together. I think oftentimes when we talk mso, we're guilty of maintaining the same stove pipes that are in DOD where we talk, you know, advancing innovative technology over here and getting it over to the field. And then there's replacing the leg legacy systems over here. You know, we, we have to replace the old and bring in the new. But one or, but Robin's Air Force base is kind of that intersection of those two because you have to not only maintain the innovative technologies we put out into the field, but you also have to maintain the legacy and you have to make them, you have to integrate those capabilities, make sure they're interoperable, make sure they're, you know, if, if you have an analog system that it's working and you have to get that to digital and you have to make those upgrades so that you can maintain the best capability.

Ken Miller [00:09:26]:
But you really do deal with both worlds that come together in Robin. So talk a little bit about some of the challenge challenges that you see from a, from a life cycle management perspective about how you meet the requirements of the warfighter from legacy systems all the way to the next generation innovation that's going to change the way that we fight.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:09:49]:
So yeah, I actually have a pretty unique look into all of that from not only being civil service but now being a contractor. It's very important that there are lots of legacy capabilities that you referenced that they they're expensive, they're still effective and they, they need to be maintained because that's how we support keeping, keeping our nation safe. Right. And also our, our allies. However, there are constant opportunities for tech refresh that because of the ever changing and things getting smaller, better, faster and more reliable, more capability and you have to, there's a balance that has to be maintained and it goes across domestic US and foreign military with the different systems. And it can be actually quite challenging but very important to make sure that if you're a company, you've got some new technology out there. Share, be sure to share and keep your customers up to date of what you have out there, how it's been tested. Commonality is very important these days too.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:11:19]:
Not just commonality across or within like the F15 fleet. I'm talking commonality across F15s, possibly C130s, F16s with different capabilities. However, leveraging across all of those different weapon systems, some of the same technology, it might look a little different in some of the other platforms, but there is commonality across how they're built, the LRUs that make up that system. And it's always very unique and a very fantastic opportunity when the United States Air Force, or the DOD for that matter, can take advantage or actually use some technology that our foreign military sales partners have paid for. Because usually it's the opposite. That USEF develops, designs and then our allies then come in and become part of the infrastructure for that particular capability. So it's definitely. There's.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:12:31]:
It's complicated, but it can be very rewarding to make sure that you keep that commonality and you stress the importance of leveraging other technology. Let's face it, things aren't getting less expensive, they're getting more expensive, they're getting more complicated. And, and our customers should only have to pay for that technology once. So try to figure out how to make that happen.

Ken Miller [00:12:57]:
Yeah, it's interesting. I know several years ago now we had AOC supported some language that was drafted that was submitted by the EW Working Group in the National Defense Authorization act, which was basically, it was a pilot program to encourage kind of a, A breakdown, so to speak, in how we keep the color of money separate. So in. When it comes to O M, you know, being able. When certain things are in depot or in maintenance, and if there's an upgrade that they can make in O and M, they, the. The service can approve the use of that O and M money for something that would otherwise be money appropriated in a procurement or an R and D line or something. And I think one of the things that. One of the reasons why that language was very.

Ken Miller [00:13:52]:
We supported it so strongly a number of years ago was because when you go to the places like Robbins, you've quickly realized that, you know, our globe, our. Our defense industrial base is widespread across every state, so many different communities. But the experts that reside in these locations, they know what they're doing. And you want to empower those experts on the ground because they're the ones that are, that are touching the, the, the equipment that we need to send to the field. They're the ones that. Working on it and making it better. So this pilot program was to empower those people to be able to spot certain things that could be done through O and M to advance. To advance the technology.

Ken Miller [00:14:41]:
Pilot program is over. It really never took off because of some lawyers and so forth that are not local to Robins probably. But there were, you know, it was an effort that I think still on some level, I think is Good to continue because I think that as you mentioned, things are getting more complicated, they're getting more expensive. The old ways of thinking about how we keep everything, you know, disaggregated. We have to rethink all that. So can you share a little bit about just that challenge of. You have the experts on the ground at Robbins, one of the centers of gravity for the EW community at Robbins, and can you talk about some of the challenge of bridging that, bridging that gap, but of understanding that like, you know, here, everybody, all the work is being done at Robbins, yet it's a lot of different pots of money, a lot of different hoops to jump through depending on what you're trying to do. And how does that work in terms of being able to bring in new opportunities to Robins, you know, as it pertains to defense acquisition, maintenance and so forth?

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:15:54]:
Yeah, of course. And I'm sorry, when I was talking a little bit about what Robbins does, I hon only really specifically talked about Air Force Lifecycle Management center, where the EW, the C2ISR, the F15, the C130ATs and support equipment and vehicle, they all fall under the Life Cycle Management Center. However, there's a whole nother side, the Air Force Sustainment center, that also resides here at Robbins. And that's where the periodic depot maintenance for F15, C130s, C17s all get accomplished. Not to mention also the electronics and the commodities, there are depots for that as well here. So you have capabilities like different radar warning receivers that come here for repair when they need to be repaired. And you hit the nail on the head. Back in January, I had the opportunity of attending the F15 Sustainment Commanders Conference.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:17:01]:
And during that conference they always talk about the depot line and what's going on. And you're very correct. Not only do some of those aircraft come in for the periodic depot maintenance that like getting your oil changed every 3,000, 4,000 miles, there are certain things that have to be done to these aircraft. But in addition, there is also new capabilities that, that make their way into that depot line because the weapon system is already tore down and it's easily accessible. However, managing that schedule can become very, very complicated. And the F15, for example, is undergoing a huge mod of a brand new internal electronic warfare suite. And you have to, you have to take. That is something that if you were buying these new aircraft, it would be installed as the aircraft was being built.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:18:00]:
So wings have to come off, everything has to come off for wiring and all that, all that good stuff. And I, I'm going to tell you, last week we had our Robins state of the base for 2024. And I can remember very several years where there was a struggle to keep up with the PDM lines and to keep up with getting the aircraft out on time because that PDM is programmed into so many days that aircraft comes in and then it must go out because it has to get back out in the field. So there are lots of struggles. What we heard last week was that not only is Robins actually getting aircraft through the depot line on time, some of the times it's actually early. And we have turned around what we're doing here. And quite frankly, Air Force Materiel Command actually voted our depot best for 2024. So that is a phenomenal feat.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:19:12]:
Which just means that those, those experts that you reference, that they are here, they are available and they are getting the job done. And it's, it's amazing. Well, what they, they referenced something that General, General Alvin said was kick butt anytime, anywhere. And we're doing a good job of that right now, which is fantastic. It's exciting to be, to be here, quite honestly.

Ken Miller [00:19:40]:
And you can see that from leadership in general. When you have good leadership at the top, it flows down and creates a culture that other people buy into and you can accomplish your mission. And I think if you're seeing that type of work where Robbins is now leading in a lot of areas. And I think the, the report you sent me, as you know, Robbins Air force base contributes $4.26 billion to the Georgia economy. That's, that's, that's not, that's a lot of money and, and, and you know, so the, the fact that it is contributing so much to the economy and they are excelling at hitting the deadlines and stuff, I think it shows the culture, which is of course reinforced that you, you understand that 30 minutes after reaching Robbins, I mean, I don't think I've met a single person at Robbins over the years. I said, like, I've to get out of here. This is, you know, Middle Georgia, whatever. But it, so it's, I, I think it's, it's a testament to, to a lot of the good people down there.

Ken Miller [00:20:40]:
So just to, so next week you have your annual Dixie Crow conference. You bring a lot of folks together, exhibitors, speakers, and then I think there's usually a, A, a requirements symposium or something attached to it and tell us a little bit about what's going on next week that should interest that should interest the community and to either attend or to at least follow and make sure that they are engaged in the work that Robbins does on a daily basis.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:21:13]:
You bet. I can talk about this all day long. So. So our 49th Dixie Crow Technical Symposium kicks off on Sunday. We currently I was just actually looking at some numbers. I have a planning committee meeting at 2:00 or actually 2:30. So when we get done here I'll be going straight over to meet with the committee. We have about 800 registrants and where banquet on Wednesday.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:21:42]:
We currently have sold 90 tickets of the 120 Golf. The John Wayne Carter Invitational on Monday is going to be sold out. I can pretty much guarantee it. We have 57 vendors in the exhibit hall and we are excited to bring back our Crow's Nest novel experiments with science and technology on the Wednesday bringing in some local students to actually walk them around to the different vendors and talk to them about different technologies. So that's going to be very exciting. And in addition the Electronic Warfare Division and the Combat Avionics Division have what we call the EW and a technical conference and it runs Tuesday, Wednesday and then on Thursday there'll be some professional training offered. They have 14 speakers, some at the collateral secret levels, some at CUI, some at unclassified. And very delighted to have Colonel Michael Middens, the 950th Spectrum Warfare Group.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:22:53]:
He is going to be the guest speaker. Our keynote speaker is Major General Frank Bradfield iii. He is the Deputy Commander of the Air Force Reserve Command. And it's going to be a phenomenal week. And as you as you mentioned, in addition the NDIA Central Georgia chapter so that's the National Defense Industrial association partners with Robins Air Force Base for what we call our Robins Requirements Symposium and that is on Thursday. It kicks off at 0700 to to 1730 and our keynote speaker is Lieutenant General Michael Conley, the AFSOC commander. Very excited to have him here. Many people don't know that there is actually an AFSOC detachment that resides here at Robins and oh by the way it just has their electronic warfare professionals.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:24:04]:
So EW EMS goes across so many of the different commands and I really like to see because you really wouldn't know that this happens but it does happen where you have the USAF AFSOC foreign military partners. Actually there's a lot of collaboration that goes on because you have some folks that are just naturally more expert at different things and they all work together, they all share, they talk to each other. They figure out what's the best approach to different things. And it's a very exciting time to be here, quite frankly. So this next week is going to be very busy and very exciting. And for anyone out there that's listening that got the rumor or thought they heard a rumor that the events are canceled, no, they are not. Please come see us.

Ken Miller [00:25:03]:
I'm glad you brought that up because obviously in, in the, in the private sector association world, you know, we're all, we. There was an executive order a couple weeks ago about freezing credit cards and there's a lot of, there's a lot of uncertainty about what that meant, but basically it was, it wasn't the end of conferences. It was just a guidance of like making sure that it's worth, it's, it's, there's a value to sending folks to that, to that conference or whatever. The, the, the, the misinformation that's out there is that basically I think a lot of that interpretation is left to people who will interpret it with the lowest risk possible and that, and that scares a lot of people that are, you know, so. But at the end of the day, you know, I think particularly in the defense sector and we, we touched about this just a few minutes ago, it's, you know, every, all 50 states globally as well. Just our u. S. Defense industrial base is everywhere.

Ken Miller [00:26:06]:
If you want to have the collaboration you need to keep things cost effective, on schedule and you know, successful in the field. You need to collaborate together and you need to bring those people together so that they can work together in person and get to know how, what needs to be done and, and how it needs to be done properly. So the value of these conferences is tremendous to the, especially to the defense community because you have, how, you know, there's several different, there's other air force depot bases, there's, you know, obviously there, each service has them. There's, there's joint functions, there's special ops functions. There's a lot of different players that rely on robins and other bases and bringing them together on a regular basis bring to the stakeholders together to collaborate is the, the, the benefits are, are real. And hopefully people don't get too scared with misinformation.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:27:09]:
Exactly. I have, I, I really can't even tell you how many, how many emails and phone calls I've fielded since last Friday about all of that. And yes, the importance of the collaborative environments to network and to learn from each other just cannot be stressed enough. And you're exactly right. It didn't say that you couldn't travel and you shouldn't travel. It just put emphasis on making sure that it's not a boondoggle. Right. That there.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:27:47]:
And so many people. There are so many things you can get done when you, when you come especially to, to our symposiums next week because we have a, such a large cross section of customers that live here. It's unbelievable. So it's industry that's traveling in, so you just have to be smart about it. Yeah, just be, just be smart about it.

Ken Miller [00:28:09]:
But yeah, you're, you're, you're right. But it's, you know, it's, it's, it's true that it's a lot easier to mirror fear than it is to mirror courage. And you know, so all it takes is a few voices to raise an alarm and that will have a far greater impact on behavior than a few people expressing courage. So it's, it's, it's an interesting dynamic, but absolutely, if, if you're looking for a productive, valuable interaction, collaboration environment, next week at Dixie Crow is, is fantastic. And you know, quite frankly, you know, you mentioned the word boondoggle. I mean, as, as fantastic as Warner Robin is in Robbins Air Force Base, Middle George is never going to be mistaken for Las Vegas or any other place that boondoggles do traditionally happen. So, yeah, you would think that, right? Love Middle Georgia. But yeah.

Ken Miller [00:29:07]:
But anyway, so, yes, I encourage that. So just to kind of. We, we have a, a question in the chat and, and I want, so I want to kind of switch gears here to talk a little bit about Women's History Month because, you know, here on from the Crow's Nest, we're taking this month to recognize the accomplishments of, of women in our community. And we've had some great, we've had some great guests. I had Lori Buckhout on previously this month. We had Crystal Ward talking about empowering women in EW Initiative for aoc. We have been working together through AOC stuff for decades now. And it be your engagement, particularly in the advocacy, advocacy agenda.

Ken Miller [00:29:56]:
The advocacy initiatives that we have at AOC has been, I mean, I can't thank you enough for all the, the leadership and guidance you've given to myself professionally as well as, you know, others in the AOC over the years. But you also, you've been, you've been on AOC board, you've been AOC president, very successful two years. I guess you served back in 2017, I think. Time frame, I can't remember. But, you know, so you've Been AOC present. You've seen AOC from a lot of different perspectives, from local chapter to national to international. So talk a little bit about your career as it pertains to, you know, as a, as a woman in ew, how do you approach your career? What does it mean to you? And kind of talk a little bit about your views on empowering women, other women who want to get into this field or some related fields in. In the future.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:30:59]:
Of course. And first, I will preface with saying you do not have to be technical to be a member of the association of Old Crows.

Ken Miller [00:31:10]:
Thank you.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:31:10]:
I really. Yes. Because I am not. However, we all have common sense and I'm a business major. I will tell you that retail must be in my blood. My dad was in retail, so I am a huge proponent of communicating and getting to know people and just talking and trying to help others always. So when I finished my bachelor's degree, I actually applied for what they call the Palace Acquire Program and was very fortunate to be selected. And that's what brought me here to Robbins Air Force Base International Logistics.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:32:00]:
Had no idea what that even meant. But I was also a dependent spouse from. My husband was in the Air Force and, you know, it just all fit. So it was fantastic. From the day one when I, when I hit Robbins Air Force Base, one of my main. I actually had had two mentors. One was my sponsor, Ms. Annie Dame, and the other was Chief Master Sergeant retired Howard Smith, who happened to be the new business guy in the FMS office.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:32:40]:
And immediately he was very involved with the Dixie Crow chapter. He brings me an application and says, lisa, you need to complete this. You're going to help me with this. Being Palace Acquirer, I was free labor. So I said, well, of course, you know, so I filled it out and gave it back to him. And quite honestly, that is how I got started in the chapter. I immediately was on the committees for planning the Dixie Crow symposiums. And it just evolved into being on the technical committee, being on the board of directors, being the chapter president and then running for it was actually at large director and then Southern Regional director and then AOC president.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:33:29]:
And I have to credit Howard for pushing that application to me to have me to complete it and sharing with me how important he thought my membership was going to be. I have had many people tell me, lisa, you did it right when you became civil service, you immediately got started on your other professional development and became very involved in this community. And I have seen firsthand how being involved, from awarding scholarships to just talking to people about what they can actually receive from being a member, how they can meet people, how mentorship, learning about different things that you may not know about, and you just never know who you're going to run into. And quite frankly, that's how I got my job with bae is someone that I knew that had worked with me as civil service, recommended me, and I then completed the application, and the rest is history. Here I am. But I'm such a huge, huge fan of helping others and giving back. And I've even seen, and there's a couple of our scholarship awardees that now they have their doctorates and they give back to our Dixie Crow chapter in sponsorship because they understand the importance of it. So it's a lot of fun.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:35:16]:
I get a lot of enjoyment out of it. And I actually told the convention team the other day that, you know, now I'm just the Dixie Crow chapter den mom. You know, I just try to make sure that things get done. And I, of course, still help a lot with the symposium, but it's very rewarding and making those connections, connecting people that may never have ever met before. It's important. Very important.

Ken Miller [00:35:46]:
Yeah, I'm. I'm glad that you mentioned the. That you don't have to be a technical expert to be a part of the community and even to make the most of your community, your. Your time in the community. And people have, you know, listeners have heard me talk about the fact that I'm, I'm. I'm in your same boat. Like, no technical training whatsoever, just all kind of years of experience and, and learning. But, you know, being productive in our community, being helpful in our community isn't about solving the next complex equation as much as it is just being available to connect because everybody needs something.

Ken Miller [00:36:24]:
And there's. There's so many different ways that you can show your value without technical expertise. And I think, you know, the two of us here kind of show that. So that's. So that. That was a great point that you made there. We have a question in the chat. So since it's Women's History Month, have you noticed any shifts in opportunities for women in EW over the years? You know, so.

Ken Miller [00:36:53]:
And why do you think that? If so, why do you think that that's happened? And do you think, you know, government and industry are doing enough to support women in ew?

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:37:05]:
So that's a good question. And I would have to say that you can't. You can't sit around and wait for others to make opportunities. You have to help make opportunities yourself. And if this is, if joining or being a part of the electromagnetic spectrum workforce or EW workforce is something that you really enjoy and want to do, then you just have to get connected. We still very much. I have never felt as the minority in a room full of men, never. But some of that may come from being raised on a farm, showing livestock, you know, always has, you know, it is what it is.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:38:01]:
But I don't let that detract or take from me. If you have something to really to give to this, then please give it 110% and you will be, you will be recognized for it because just quite frankly, you're going to outshine and outperform everyone else. And not that you're really trying to do that, but we as women, most of the time, we, we all, we're, we're better multitaskers and we take a lot on our plate. Most of, you know, are moms. We also have a full time professional career and all the other things that, that you do, running a family and having a home and, and it's, it's very rewarding. I, I enjoy. I honestly would have never known, and I know I've said this before, that, that any job like this would ever exist. I had no idea growing up, where I grew up.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:39:08]:
But I, I do believe though, that women don't let anyone keep you down. If it's something you really want to do, then push for it. If you need some assistance or would like some mentoring or maybe just to have a conversation about maybe approach, don't ever feel like you can't do that. Reach out to other women that you know that are moving up that ladder. I have several women friends that are, that are engineers and I respect what they do. But we're a nice collaborative mixture, right? We have our strengths and we have our weaknesses. That's just people, honestly, not just women, but everyone. So I do think that more opportunities are opening up to women, but I also believe that we just can't sit around and wait for them to advertise, you know, women only.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:40:17]:
You got to get in there and you got, if it's something you really want to do, you need to fight for it and you need to show people you're interested and what you're made of, quite frankly.

Ken Miller [00:40:26]:
So I mentioned in the introduction, of course, you were AOC president at one, back about six years ago or so. And my previous guest, Laurie Buckhound, who has also had a very distinguished career in our community, was also an AOC president. Talk to us A little bit from just, you know, looking at aoc, because a lot of the, a lot of our subscribers are AOC members. A lot of our listeners are AOC members as well. But look, just put your AOC hat on. As a former AOC president, you've been involved very closely with AOC for at least as long as I've been involved with AOC. So it's been about 30, you know, 25 years or so. What, how, how have you seen AOC change positively and you know, over the years.

Ken Miller [00:41:14]:
And I think that if you know, both your term as well as Lori Buckhouse or maybe were both very pivotal terms in terms of the direction AOC came out stronger after your term, as well as lawyers, and it could have gone other ways, but your leadership took AOC in the right direction. So from an AOC perspective, kind of talk a little bit about where the association has come from in your mind and where you, you hope to see it go in the future.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:41:47]:
So while I was president, of course I've, I've mentioned that I'm very much a people person and I believe in communication and collaboration. And we, we did, we got very involved with a lot of other professional organizations. Let's, let's just face it. There are many of us that we belong to, to several organizations. Well, for instance, here, here at Robbins, you got, you have the aoc, you have the fca, the ieee, the ndia, and we're all members. You pretty much have the same group of people that are members in everything. So communicating and collaborating is very important. Advocating for the technologies, the importance of our warfighters and the communicating of all.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:42:52]:
You can never over communicate. Some people may think you can, but really you can't. You can use a lot of word salad and stuff, but you can never over communicate.

Ken Miller [00:43:03]:
If I could interject with the communication thing, I think that's extremely important. And I was having a conversation with a friend talking about the challenges of communication. And I think oftentimes we think about the words we say, as you mentioned, the word salad and everything comes out. But there's also that comprehension piece and that's the ability with communicating to let, to, to truly take the effort to understand what the other person is saying. And sometimes we stop at the words we say and not how to understand the words another person is saying. So we were just having that conversation. When you mentioned communication, that popped in my head and I think that that was a really interesting, good way of. It was, it was an eye opening aspect of the conversation because I don't think we do comprehend enough, even if we try to communicate.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:43:54]:
No, very, very good point. And a lot of times that's because we're on transmit. And when you're on transmit, you're really not listening. So the opportunity and the realization to actually listen. Well, the chapters of the aoc, they're the lifeblood. They are what makes the AOC the aoc. And our chapters are worldwide, of course, and not everyone has the same access. And what I mean by that is the Dixie Crow chapter is very blessed that we reside where Robbins Air Force Base is.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:44:40]:
So we have a very active chapter. But that's not all because of just the location. That's because our forefathers laid out a fabulous. The groundwork and stability of what it is we do here and all the different programs that we support. And we've been very blessed to continue to have good leadership come through. And sometimes you have to work a little harder at it. Right. And it can get very stressful.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:45:18]:
But I really enjoyed. Probably one of the most things I really enjoyed out of being President Ken, was the opportunity to visit with the chapters and see what kind of obstacles they thought they had and. Or help them think about different things that they could do to promote that didn't always necessarily have to be technical in nature, and sometimes that's also very difficult to overcome because you think you have to be technical to be a member of the. Of the association, which is. Is not true. Just trying to. To get to know people and to learn about them and then to see what. What needs are out there as far as education and go to our stem.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:46:08]:
Right. Our STEM initiatives. It is imperative, it is our job to act, to push the opportunities for STEM education, to help educate our leaders of tomorrow. If we don't do it, who's going to do it? And quite honestly, you and I, we're not going to be around forever. We have. Someone has to come in and, and take over. I don't know.

Ken Miller [00:46:37]:
I don't know. I don't know about you, Lisa. I'm going to live forever. I'm going to be around. AOC ain't going to get rid of me that quickly.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:46:44]:
It'll be a while. Trust. Trust me a while. But.

Ken Miller [00:46:48]:
But we're so young at heart.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:46:50]:
Oh, amen to that. Very much so. But it's just very important to be laying the groundwork of the advocacy, of the outreach, of the appreciation for the technology and the opportunities that are out there. People don't know what they don't know. And that again, the reason why communication is just so utterly important. And I know we went through a little period of time actually in the last 15 years that it was not in vogue to talk to these younger people about associations and suggest to them why they should be a member. I'm so glad that that has changed because they don't know what. They don't know if.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:47:37]:
If no one shares with them the importance of, of these opportunities. I just really never understood that whole concept. So the AOC as a whole, though, I do know and I hope people understand that it's so much more than electronic warfare, although electronic warfare very near and dear to our hearts. It is much more now about the electromagnetic spectrum and all that involves and how EW works through that, along with the C2ISR and space. And there. There are just so many. Well, we could talk laser technology and there's all kinds of things. Right.

Ken Miller [00:48:26]:
Well, I want to. There's a question. There's a number of questions from, from the audience that I want to get to. And that was one of them. So I'll lead with that. And you know, for, for those listening, we don't have a producer on, on site today. And so I just realized I could scroll down and actually see a lot of more message questions coming in. And so I'm going.

Ken Miller [00:48:50]:
So I apologize, I did not keep track of them. I was so engaged talking to you, I forgot to scroll down here. So I just want to get to some of the stu. The. The audience comments. So before we get to the, the one, there's, there's one. The next question, just a couple comments that a, a number of the audience are very pleased to hear, of course, that the event next week is happening. And I think that that's good that you were able to come on here and say, hey, don't, don't listen to all the panic.

Ken Miller [00:49:17]:
It's happening. We're good. Come down here and make the most of it. And also thumbs up to what you mentioned about collaboration is critical to mission success. A lot of support on that is showing up in the feed, so absolutely 100% necessary. And that's why it's so important that we continue to have these events. Whether you call them conferences, knowledge, information exchanges, you can come up with whatever words, but it's very important to be together face to face and to collaborate. Next question from the audience is, are there specific innovations in EW that really excite you? And you're just starting to go down that path there, So I figured that's a good time to interject that question from the audience.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:50:03]:
So quite honestly, it's all very exciting to me. Another initiative that we've taken on here with the local chapter is updating our electronic warfare exhibit in our Museum of Aviation. So I am continually learning different things from the tow decoys to the radar warning receivers and how all of that works together. And I hope that if you've not been to Robbins, you need to come to Robbins. Go to the museum, go to the second floor. Actually this week. And I see I missed a phone call just a minute ago, we are hanging a 131 pod with the fiber optic Ali 55 tow decoy coming out the back and then talking about the scenario. We've had someone actually to record a scenario that we, that we've written that talks about SAMs and two F16s flying and the whole mission that is unfolding there.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:51:15]:
So to me, never have really been all that technical. All of the technology is very exciting and interesting to me. And even though I may not understand all of it, I usually get the jest of what's going on. And that's enough, right? Because we have, we have the engineers that, that understand how things are, are supposed to work. But yeah, when I learned that a radar detector in your car to tell you, you know, police are nearby, that's, that's what an RWR does. And so very, some very interesting easy points that, that we, we actually do have EW in our daily life.

Ken Miller [00:52:01]:
And that that question came from someone in the audience who also, you know, mentioned that basically they're, they are part of a STEM team and there are substantial, substantially less women than men. And so, you know, I think part of the challenge that we have in our community is to really spend, focus our energies on reaching out to people about what's going on, about the ideas and making it more accessible. Even if it's a highly technical topic, being able to make, bring it down to a starting point so that people looking to enter can kind of grab onto key foundational principles that give them something to, to, to take that next step on that ladder. One last question we have. What advice would you give to young professionals, both men and women, who want to enter the MSO field? And a related comment to that is recognition that more is opening up from women. This is from a, a female audience member. More is opening up for women. And quote, don't let the DEI scrubbing that is happening right now deter you from entering this MSO work in your community.

Ken Miller [00:53:28]:
Because I think that there's a lot of Fear like they're getting rid of the DEI policies and they're somehow going to limit. That's somehow going to limit opportunities. But the fact is the opportunities are still opening even more. So you just have to, as you mentioned earlier, you just have to seize it. So what are some. So as if you're a young professional listening to this show, what is some advice? You have to enter the field.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:53:56]:
So I would definitely not let the DEI thing bother you because I started long before it really officially happened and didn't have any of those issues now did I? Did I encounter some negative feedback throughout, you know, going up the ranks? Oh, yes. But you don't ever let that deter you. It can be taken care of properly. But I would say if there's something you're really interested in, I'm hoping that you know someone that could help, maybe point you in a direction of how you could really dig your teeth in. But if you don't know someone, you're always reach out to me, reach out to the AOC and ask if there's a mentor, if there's someone that they could point you in their direction just for some mentoring, if nothing else. Because quite honestly, within the aoc, you get to know a lot of people. And if you just speak up and make mention of what you're interested in, I can pretty much guarantee you we know someone to point you in the right direction. And that would be anyone that is either representing the AOC or in chapter leadership, for that matter, to help you.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:55:29]:
People are always willing to help. You just need to ask and don't be bashful. But I think you could get the assistance that you require just by asking the question.

Ken Miller [00:55:43]:
Well, Lisa, thank you for joining me here on from the Crow's Notes. It's always great to catch up with you. I greatly appreciate what you just said. I think it's really important to. For people to know that in order to get involved in m. So you don't have to be a scientist, you don't have to be an engineer. You are a business, you know, business major. I'm policy.

Ken Miller [00:56:05]:
It doesn't matter what your interest is. There's a relatable aspect to this field because there's no field, quite frankly, that's going to be. That's growing faster than us. I mean, you look at technology, everything has to do with the spectrum, even in commercial, so so many opportunities. You don't have to be an engineer just to be interested. This is about. But this is a field that, as we've said before, it's the one field that really dives into one of the fundamental forces of the universe, and there is nothing more exciting than doing that. So it's, it's a fantastic field and I would encourage everyone to who has an interest to look into it.

Ken Miller [00:56:43]:
So. But thank you for joining me here from the Crows Nest. That's all the time that we have for today, so I appreciate you taking to the time and you apparently have a lot of followers because we had a lot of people in the audience today, so thank you.

Lisa Frugé Cirilli [00:56:56]:
Well, my goodness, if anyone comes down to Robbins next week, be sure and find me. Say hello, be glad to talk to you.

Ken Miller [00:57:06]:
Sounds good. All right, well, that will conclude this episode of From the Crows' Nest. I want to thank my guest Lisa Frugé Cirilli for joining me. Also, don't forget to take a moment to review, share and subscribe to this podcast. If you are not an AOC member or subscriber, you can listen to this episode during Women's History Month until the end of the month before it goes behind a paywall. So if you enjoyed this discussion and want to have more, take a look at either joining AOC or subscribing to the podcast. Also, as I mentioned, at the top of the show, we have have a listener survey. If you can take some time to complete that listener survey, we'd greatly appreciate it.

Ken Miller [00:57:45]:
It's always helpful for us to hear from our audience how we can improve the show. If you complete that survey and submit your email, you'll be eligible to receive a From the Crows' Nest T shirt while supplies last. That is it for today. Thanks for listening.