From the Crows' Nest

Ken Miller [00:00:00]:
Welcome to From the Crows' Nest, a podcast on electromagnetic spectrum operations, or EMSO. I'm your host, Ken Miller, Director of Advocacy and Outreach for the Association of Old Crows. You can follow me on LinkedIn or email me directly at host@fromthecrowsnest.org. As always, it's great to be here with you and thanks for listening in this episode. I am pleased to be coming to you live from AOC Europe in Rome, Italy. We have been here all week. This is our signature international conference that we hold every year around this time frame. We have been uploading segments of From the Crows' Nest throughout the week here on LinkedIn. So if you have not been on LinkedIn, please go to that.

Ken Miller [00:00:49]:
And I've been putting up segments, interviews with various guest speakers and exhibitors here, but we want to do a regular show here from from the show floor here. So I am pleased to have with me three very special guests who are all speaking here this week, many of them you've heard before. So first on, on my left here is Erik Bamford. He is the AOC Board of Directors member for International Region 1 with the AOC. He is also the Branch Chief EW for the Norwegian Armed Forces. And then I have Duncan McCrory here from Freeman Aerospace Institute in King's College, London. And then of course, Tom Withington, journalist and subject matter expert and all around favorite guest of From the Crows' Nest. So welcome gentlemen.

Ken Miller [00:01:35]:
Thanks for joining me here on From the Crows' Nest. It's great to have you all on the show at one time.

Tom Withington [00:01:40]:
Great to be here. Thanks so much, Ken.

Erik Bamford [00:01:42]:
Thanks, Ken.

Ken Miller [00:01:43]:
All right, so this show is going to go a little bit differently than our normal shows because we are coming to you live. So this is unedited. And so we have already been having quite the time getting technical problems taken care of here on the show floor. And of course, we are also enjoying it's a free drink reception. So we are, we have been, we're ready to have a conversation about ews, gentlemen. So thank you so much for taking time to join me. I want to start off actually with Eric Bamford here. You really kind of led the charge in putting the entire show together from a symposium standpoint.

Ken Miller [00:02:19]:
You spoke this morning at the opening session. Tell us a little bit about what the focus or what you want the message to be about during these three days here at AOC Europe.

Erik Bamford [00:02:31]:
Yeah. So going back to what I said this morning, these are special times in Europe. It is the changes over the last couple of weeks with the Change in administration in the U.S. the kind of also the changed security environment across the Atlantic as it is perceived in popular media as well. The focus is rearm Europe 2030 and for this conference and the participants here, that gives a lot of opportunities. European Commission white paper on Rearming Europe 2030 specifically identifies EW as an area to focus on to rearm Europe and protect Europe collective funding for larger projects. It will all affect our members, both individuals from, from both military, industry, academia, our industry members most likely very much so. Bringing out the focus on possibilities.

Erik Bamford [00:03:46]:
That is what we need to focus on right now.

Ken Miller [00:03:48]:
And I think the push especially within NATO and other European countries to develop what I would call native technologies to Europe really following kind of some building on some of the niche capabilities that are already in service. But you know, some of the countries do really well in certain areas. But you know, they, you have to tie it all together as, as a region too. We always talk a lot about interoperability and integration and so forth. How has that conversation changed with Europe's renewed focus on kind of developing its own capabilities versus being under an umbrella of say the US or another leader?

Erik Bamford [00:04:27]:
So since I worked on NATO standardization for quite a few years as well, what you see is that while the European nations and the EW industry is including and building to NATO standards on ew, US industry has never really built fully to NATO standards. They've used US military specifications, they've used industry developed specifications and tried to push them as a global standardization way of doing things. So for Europe, we might actually be able to push towards larger degree of interoperability than what we've had just buying us built stuff. Because industry is dependent on host nation ratifying starmugs. When host nation for an industry ratify Star nux, it goes organically into their own requirements. That has not been fully developed on the EW side in the US it has done so in Europe. So from my perspective, the push towards European developed EW capability is likely going to give us more interoperability in terms of data formats that that allows sharing at a different level, platforms that can directly communicate because the standards are integrated from design and not from an operational perspective.

Ken Miller [00:05:58]:
So with regard to developing to standards, throughout a number of the briefings this week and today we've talked, the buzzwords are the spectrum is congested, contested, constrained. I like to say it's chaotic. It's my own kind of word to C word to throw in there. But the, at the end of the day though we, you know, when we talk multi domain Operations and inter service connectivity and collaboration and interoperability. We think of this spectrum almost monolithically, but in reality it's, it is a, it is a continuum you have, but you have, you have to take into account different environments, different adversaries, capabilities. What does the geography allow you to do? What does the various domains all have their characteristics that affect how you operate when you look at Europe and US has to deal with it because we have adversaries all around the world. So we're always the away team in Europe. You're oftentimes going to be the home team, but your environments that you deal with in the Nordic region different than Southern Europe or other places.

Ken Miller [00:07:10]:
And you have obviously the Russian Ukraine war. You can't turn your eye on Indo, Paycom. And we'll, I'll talk to Duncan a little bit about that in, in the future. But how do you develop to the standard when, how, how much more difficult is it for Europe to, to attain a standard when you're dealing with such a tremendously diverse operating space? Maybe more so than what we would even have to consider over in the.

Erik Bamford [00:07:36]:
US So I think one of the challenges is the how industry is still national. And you know, Europe's not a, the EU is not a federation like the US is. So you will still have national protectionism across the standardization, but so the nations will have their own organic industry that builds to national requirements. And that is going to be a challenge, which is why the information standards, the information formatting is so vital to getting this to work across all the European nations. So, you know, the European NATO nations alone is 30 nations, so. And a lot of them build EW systems. But I mean, the entire conference here goes to as a testament to European industry on EW as well. I mean it is, we've never have, we've never had so many exhibitors from industry as we do on this conference.

Erik Bamford [00:08:35]:
And a lot of it is, well, one thing is thanking Putin for pushing this focus, you know, the other one is thanking aoc that gets such a large crowd gathered into the same room. Yeah, I actually think it is collaboration on the floor, both in the exhibit hall, but also on the knowledge building in the conference room. Yeah, so that is, that is the.

Ken Miller [00:08:58]:
Starting point we're seeing obvious back in the stateside. We have a lot of questions about, you know, traveling to conferences and our own mess over there. But we've always, you know, aoc, we always talk about how important the information exchange is in person. You have to have that, especially because we're so Spread out. It's the same case over in here. I would say even more important over here to get that FaceTime one on one, because you're dealing with other national processes and procedures and militaries that it's even harder to have virtual that way. So you have to be in person. So I think this show is actually starting to rival the AOC national show a little bit.

Ken Miller [00:09:35]:
I mean, in terms of quantity and quality. It's been a fantastic week. So I want to bring in Tom Withington. Tom, great to see you again. It was great talking to you earlier this month. You are going to be chairing a session tomorrow afternoon on lessons learned in Russia, Ukraine, war. It's a great panel. You have Duncan serving on the panel as well.

Ken Miller [00:09:59]:
Obviously, this is, it's the closing session, but it's also basically the topic that everyone's talking about the entire week. What lessons are we learning? How do we, how do we take those lessons and apply them to other emerging threats or existing threats? Talk to us a little bit about your session and what you're trying, what points you're trying to get across to the audience.

Tom Withington [00:10:18]:
Well, Ken, first of all, great to be back. Lovely to be here with you in Rome and lovely to be here with my esteemed friends and colleague Eric and Duncan as well. As you mentioned, Duncan's going to be on the panel tomorrow. So in terms of the roundtable, I mean, when Bob Andrews contacted me and asked if it's something I'd be very keen to do, I jumped at the opportunity. And it's always obviously great to be at the events and to see everybody. But as we discussed it, we decided to take the Russia, Ukraine situation almost as a jump off point. So here we are, regrettably, we're what, two, almost three years, well over three years down the road now from Russia's second invasion of Ukraine. We've had a lot to digest and unfortunately, so have Western anniversaries, who've had a lot to digest as well.

Tom Withington [00:11:07]:
China, of course, is the country that most people would be thinking of in terms of the near peer adversaries, but they are by no means the only one. We've got a situation in Iran, regrettably today. We've got India and Pakistan once again at war with each other. And then we've got simmering conflicts going on in Africa and elsewhere. So what I'm very keen to do tomorrow, but, you know, more, more for our panelists rather than me, I will just be, hopefully be steering the discussion in certain directions, is to Say, well, here we are with Ukraine. What lessons? What are our lessons learned? But, but more importantly, what lessons might we see transposed onto other conflicts and where might this take us? In the Asia Pacific, for instance, and elsewhere. So Duncan is going to be talking about that Pascal Iorio, who is our Italian comrade, he's going to be jumping off really, with that Ukraine, Russia discussion. And then Juliana Suess, who is a German academic based in Berlin, she's going to be picking up on some of the themes regarding space.

Tom Withington [00:12:08]:
EW but one of the things I'm keen to sort of get across with Ukraine is Ukraine is an incredibly important conflict, but we also have to be careful, and I have to be careful how I phrase this. But the point I'm trying to make is there are many applicable lessons, but there's also many lessons that it's very important that in a way we steer clear of. Now, I want to qualify that by saying a thing that I often hear coming up in the discussions when I'm talking about how the front line is in Ukraine at the moment with Russia is certain NATO nations, NATO armed forces saying, well, hang on, we're not going to take too many lessons because we wouldn't fight like that. We'd be mobile, we wouldn't be attritional. We'd never let ourselves get into the situation where we'd be attritional. And I'm often saying, well, the enemy has a vote. You know, I'm sure Ukraine felt like that. I'm sure the Russians felt like that.

Tom Withington [00:13:06]:
So I think it's important that we're judicious with the lessons. And also to remember the thing, I think it was Mark Twain who said, you know, history may not literally repeat itself, but it sure as hell rhymes. And I think that's the case. So take the lessons, but transpose them onto other situations we may think and think the unthinkable is the other thing.

Ken Miller [00:13:26]:
So at this time, I want to bring in Duncan McCrory. Duncan, we had a chance to talk earlier this morning. My interview with you is, you know, with, with our exhibitors is up on LinkedIn for those interested. But you're, you're going to be joining Tom within session tomorrow afternoon. And I really want to be able to dig in a little bit more about what Tom mentioned about, you know, Russia and Ukraine is a, is a jump off point, but there are lessons that we need to learn and maybe unlearn and apply to other conflict areas. So you're, you focus a lot on the Indo Paycom Region what, you know, what are some of the, what's a couple of the top lessons that you think we need to start to drive home here at AOC Europe as it pertains to what's going on in Russia and Ukraine and how we can apply it to an indopacom scenario.

Duncan McCrory [00:14:16]:
Okay, thanks again, Ken for having me on the show. And I think a universal lesson which again was discussed today was the crucial importance of gaining control of the air. We've seen in the Ukraine conflict that neither side has been able to gain air superiority and that's led to this grinding war of attrition on the ground that's reminiscent of trench warfare, World War I. And really we need to be able to achieve that through being able to defeat integrated air defence systems. And certainly one that we got briefed on yesterday during the Plaith intelligence session was the need to be able to deploy EW effects at scale and conduct suppression of enemy air defence missions. And last Friday in the uk, Prime Minister Keir Starmer announced the Royal Air Force's new Storm Shroud autonomous collaborative platform, acp. So this is a tactical UAS which carries a compact EW payload and it again is designed to operate as a stand in jammer to defeat and suppress enemy air defenses and protect RAF and allied air crew. And this is exactly the sort of capability that NATO needs to invest in.

Duncan McCrory [00:15:51]:
And certainly in a conflict between Taiwan and China, the PLA Air Force and the airborne components of the PLA Navy will seek to gain air dominance over the skies of Taiwan. So the question is how can Taiwan resist that? How can the Taiwanese and allied nations find weaknesses in the PLAs, you know, the Achilles hill effectively in the spectrum? And again, this is something we talked about. You know, their systems will be just as sophisticated. They will depend on complex electronics. So how can we use that to our advantage again? And this is something I'm going to talk about tomorrow as an asymmetric approach to deterring China by making it such a costly, difficult exercise for them to try and take Taiwan that it gives them pause for thoughts.

Ken Miller [00:16:52]:
So, so we, we talk a lot about, you know, in, in combat you want to increase your adversary's risk cost and latency time that it takes them to respond. And so you, you, you, Tom, you mentioned in Duncan, you, you also, you, you both mentioned about, you know, there's a war of attrition in the Russia, Ukraine war. It's not a war that either side wants to fight in the terms of it being about attrition. However, it's kind of the war that we, for lack of better terminology, scripted we want. I mean, I think Europe and us and all the players in some way. It's, it's the war we needed to fight to make sure that there's attrition. We want to avoid that future conflicts. But what is, in your estimation we've talked about in order to not fight a war of attrition, in order to have mission success quickly at the lowest cost possible in the shortest time, you need air superiority, you need domain superiority across all domains.

Ken Miller [00:17:57]:
In Ukraine, we haven't been able to get that superiority in any particular domain. We talk a lot about the air domain. My question then is what do we need to do differently in a new scenario that we're not doing in Ukraine to gain that air superior? Are we doing certain things because this is a war of attrition? Are we doing certain things to actually prevent us from accomplishing our goal of attaining, could we attain air superiority tomorrow and what would be the cost?

Tom Withington [00:18:28]:
It's an excellent question, Ken, and I'd like to pick up at a point Duncan mentioned just now because that the whole question of air superiority in Ukraine is one that ceaselessly fascinates me because to be blunt, I find myself wondering, why did the Russians give up on air superiority? D plus four. You know, they've done the second invasion in 2022. The drive on Kiev is, is in full swing. It's perhaps not going as well as expected, but logically, I was thinking at the time, observing that, well, what will now happen is that the Russian air force are going to be like a bullet of gate for the next six weeks owning the skies of Ukraine. And when they do, then you will see even much more ground maneuver going on. You'll have the maritime picture, but for some reason that stopped. And why that's interesting for NATO. Again, coming back to something we were talking about at the start of the podcast is know this is not how we would fight.

Tom Withington [00:19:23]:
And I think to be fair, NATO's got a point on that. We would not, I hope, consider putting, you know, ground units into harm's way unless we own the skies, unless we've got reasonable air control. So perhaps not air supr. Supremacy, but certainly air superiority. And to have that, you've got to have the spectrum superiority. So you have. It's. It's a bit like if you think of an orchestra, you know, an orchestra is playing a piece of music and a certain set of things have to happen.

Tom Withington [00:19:54]:
Various groups of the orchestra have to come in at certain points in Order to make the music intelligible. And in many senses the Russians slightly different, looking at the Ukrainians because they're obviously defending their territory. But the Russians in a sense didn't follow the script. They didn't follow their own script, which was stipulating the importance of those things. So in many ways, to come back to your original question, I would cautiously say I don't think NATO needs to change too much because I think the notions of. And the mentality towards air superiority and then spectrum superiority is unchallenged. And I think that, you know, that our lessons or our thinking shouldn't change as a result.

Ken Miller [00:20:35]:
Let's continue to challenge. I want to bring Eric in on this as a follow up because your background is army, but you're just your branch chief for ew, so you cover the multi domain aspect. We often talk about, and Tommy mentioned it, we wouldn't send troops into harm's way until we have the skies. I was just, we were just in, I was in, in the space session and you know, you talk about Russian and Indopa and China partnership on ground satellites in space. Are we getting to the point though, where it's not about air superiority as much for, you know, to, to. For ground. Why can't ground superiority happen? Or do we need air superiority for ground superiority? We have space, we have ground. Do we need to think about this differently? Because like, at the end of the day we're saying, oh, well, we need to control the skies to get the ground.

Ken Miller [00:21:25]:
Well, if the ground is communicating to space, we need space. We need sky, the, the sky. We need the ground. We need c. What comes first? Do we need. What traditionally is first? To be first. Maybe we can accomplish dominance just by focusing on the ground. Your thoughts on that?

Erik Bamford [00:21:41]:
Yeah, so that is again, a very good question. And as Tom alluded to as well, you need to dominate all the domains plus the operational environment that the spectrum is. But again, it's the orchestra, you know, it is with the air forces with the ranges they can operate and the speed they can operate at, including the weapons they then carry, that allows you to penetrate long or deep into adversary territory and take away those long range capabilities that are a threat to infrastructure, to logistics, to, to ground forces at mass. That is kind of the first part of that symphony that needs to be orchestrated correctly. And to do that you need, as you allude to, you need space dominance, you need air dominance, but you also need spectrum dominance. So those three are very tightly connected in order to facilitate and have a survivable ground Force.

Ken Miller [00:22:57]:
And my perspective has always been it's spectrum dominance first, because, I mean, space is electromagnetic energy. I mean, that's what it is. So if you don't have, if you control the spectrum or have the advantage there, you're going to have space. And then once you have space, you, you filter down.

Erik Bamford [00:23:11]:
And you have a point, because there's no point in having an autonomous sensor that doesn't communicate or doesn't feed the kill chain. So if the information from a sensor is only stuck on the bus in space, it doesn't serve any purpose. So if you lose the spectrum, you lose your space connection, you know, you lose your kill chain flow of data. So spectrum will always be the first thing you go for. And I mean, looking at fighting an adversary like that, like in Afghanistan as well, spectrum was literally the last thing we gave away. So even. Even on the exfil out of Kabul when, when Kabul collapsed, spectrum is the last thing you take away. It's the first thing you take and it's the last thing you give away.

Erik Bamford [00:24:06]:
So we would. We were doing RCID jamming on what is perceived to be civilian frequencies, like mobile cell phones. And so. And so that was one of the last capabilities that was given back to the. To the Afghan society.

Tom Withington [00:24:22]:
Sorry, I just wonder if I could come in on something. Eric mentioned that really, really interesting point. And I've been. You and I have, in fact, we've talked about this in the past, that one of the things that complicates that desire to own the spectrum now is, is the hearts and minds aspect. Because if you take a war like Ukraine or if you take what's happening in Gaza or Afghanistan, for instance, we've got a situation. So let me take Afghan as an example, or a future war that has that kind of complexion to it. We are going in as NATO or allied nations, and obviously we have a desire to own that spectrum therein and to use that spectrum as we wish and as we see fit. The problem is, if we want to keep the local population on side, at some point we start to have to make compromises.

Tom Withington [00:25:09]:
You may know, for instance, that, you know, this particular set of frequencies is the local mobile cell phone provision. But you also know the bad guys are using it, you know, to coordinate attacks or whatever it is. But at the same time, the local population is using it to maybe exchange messages on WhatsApp saying, well, hey, you know, these guys from the UK, from Ireland, from Norway, they're okay, you know, they're in our neighborhood, they're keeping us safe. They're all right, you know, that we feel protected. So where do you make the trade off with that? You know, and I think that you and I talked about it on a podcast, actually. I remember. And it's just something I keep thinking about. Yeah.

Ken Miller [00:25:44]:
Well, I want to bring in Duncan on this one because, you know, we're talking about, you know, the lessons learned. I want to kind of go back to something that was said at a previous session today on space, and they were talking about the partnership between Russia and China and they had mentioned that there are certain capabilities that Russia is bringing to the field in Ukraine that they were actually working on with China. And obviously China is learning its own lessons with that. So talk a little bit about this partnership between Russia and China and how that's impacting not just the Ukraine Russia conflict, but also any potential conflict in South China Sea as well as elsewhere.

Duncan McCrory [00:26:30]:
Sure. You may recall that President Putin declared that Russia and China have a no limits partnership. And we have seen that China has been supporting, actively supporting Russia with its illegal invasion of Ukraine. That includes providing support, financial support, providing dual use technologies, providing components to replace critical parts that have been blocked from the west due to sanctions, such as microprocessors. They've also provided intelligence. We heard earlier about the Chinese providing access to space based intelligence, imagery etc. So really there's a lot of cooperation there. But also in the background, we know that China traditionally was dependent on Russia for the acquisition of some of its military capabilities.

Duncan McCrory [00:27:32]:
But it's proven that the Chinese, proven they're very good at having acquired technologies, then disassembling them, understanding them, reverse engineering and then crucially improving upon them. And we've seen that time and again where they've acquired technologies, weapon systems and then being able to develop more advanced versions so they're no longer dependent on countries like Russia. It will be interesting to see, for instance, if there's a ceasefire in Ukraine, will Russia look to China, for instance, to help to rearm and reconstitute its forces before potentially expanding its campaign elsewhere in Europe? And this is again, one of the critical points I think is whilst the Indo Paycom threat is real, NATO could find itself facing adversaries that are armed with advanced Chinese export weapons. So again, it's something we need to be concerned about, I think.

Ken Miller [00:28:35]:
Yeah, that's, that's an interesting point. I wanted. So, so with regard to kind of where this is the, the future, I, I like what you said. You know, it's dangerous to focus too much on one application or One scenario, because Russia, Ukraine war isn't just about Russian Ukraine, it's about Russian hegemony, influence around the region, the world. Same thing with China or China. It's not just about Taiwan. It's about navigation through South China Sea and economic impact. So how.

Ken Miller [00:29:17]:
How can we do a. What do we need to do to kind of. Let me back up. So when you look at around the world, you have India and Pakistan escalating today as we speak. Tragic. If that gets into another. If that. If that continues to go in that direction, you have Russia, Ukraine.

Ken Miller [00:29:37]:
Obviously Russia's not done with. You know, even if they were to succeed at Ukraine, it would open up another opportunity against the Baltic states or other actors in Europe. You have North Africa, you have South America, Venezuela, you know, and their aggressions. The world is a mess. So we have that reality. We have the reality that we talk about all the freaking time. And so EMS is critical for all mission success. And in between, you have just a lot of, excuse the language, but confusing shit happening.

Ken Miller [00:30:11]:
We don't know what to do next. And this is the fact that this is what happens when you have a lot of beer on the show. So I want to go to. I want to get your opinion on how do we take. Take these lessons that are focused on Russia and Ukraine, China and into PACOM and apply it to this world that is absolutely chaotic under. With the understanding. Let's make it more complicated. You know, the US and Europe also have their own agendas.

Ken Miller [00:30:39]:
So how do you kind of navigate that to make sure that you actually succeed in your mission?

Duncan McCrory [00:30:45]:
Okay, that's a very general, challenging and expansive question. As a, as. As a humble.

Ken Miller [00:30:51]:
Well, and fortunately the podcast has to end here, the episode end there. A few minutes.

Duncan McCrory [00:30:56]:
I'll try and keep it simple.

Ken Miller [00:30:57]:
We would go deeper and deeper.

Duncan McCrory [00:30:58]:
I'll try and keep it exactly.

Ken Miller [00:31:00]:
The whiskey will come out at 7 o' clock.

Duncan McCrory [00:31:02]:
I'll try and keep it simple. So there's a few things to unpack there, but fundamentally, nobody has a crystal ball. And this is made quite clear by Admiral Bara yesterday from the Italian Navy. He said that regardless of where the threat grows, we need to ensure that the capabilities we're developing, that we have, the flexibility in place such that we can adapt in the future. You know, we talk a lot about open architectures and standards and the like, but what he's saying is we don't design for yesterday's war. We need to think about emerging threats and where they're going. The other thing is, whilst there Is a degree of change happening with US policy? Fundamentally, I think we still hold the same values within Europe and the us. We're still all part of NATO.

Duncan McCrory [00:31:55]:
And I think as things stabilize, there's a need to continue to work together to address these threats which fundamentally challenge democracy and our way of life. And I don't know if anyone else wants to come in here.

Ken Miller [00:32:08]:
Well, I was just going to ask Tom and Eric if you could kind of give closing thoughts on, in terms of that question or anything else that we did not cover.

Tom Withington [00:32:17]:
Just two points I'd like to make, really. Firstly, I mean, in the Indo Pacific situation, if, heavens forbid, there's a war between the US and China, Europe will be involved. There's no way. The continent cannot be. We've got trading links, we've got lines of communication, as much as the US depends on it.

Erik Bamford [00:32:36]:
Still got Article 5 as well.

Tom Withington [00:32:37]:
We've still got Article 5, absolutely. So I think that's the first thing that I would mention. But the second thing, and this may be a bit controversial, but I would argue actually that's why we're here, really. Since about 1939, I would say, the world's always been chaotic. It's easy to think back to the 1990s and see it as a kind of golden age. And wasn't it great? Everybody from Francis Fukuyama emerged? End of history, actually. We had the Balkans, we had all kinds of things going. We had.

Ken Miller [00:33:08]:
It was actually the start of history.

Tom Withington [00:33:09]:
Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. And then, you know, 911 comes along and does change things fundamentally. So I think we occasionally need to give ourselves a bit of credit and say, you know, we are quite good when we need to, of accommodating chaos and preferably surpassing chaos. So, yeah, that would be my pine shot.

Erik Bamford [00:33:30]:
I mean, just to follow up on what Thomas says there as well. The armed forces have been flexible. It is the political system that hasn't been foreseen. So the armed forces has reorganized, rearmed, retrained to those missions that have come up. It is the political ability to foresee those conflicts and do that, do change the requirements in due time. That is the problem set. And that is just, you know, that's everyday life right now.

Ken Miller [00:33:59]:
Yeah.

Erik Bamford [00:33:59]:
And then another point when it comes to the India, Pakistan, potential escalating conflict right now, the big danger there is that we are very focused on the Ukraine, we're very focused on Israel, Gaza, we are very focused on China, and we forget this very potent conflict, again, between two nuclear nations that can spiral out of control because we do not have the capability to engage in that conflict, either diplomatically or by coercive means.

Ken Miller [00:34:32]:
So that is probably, and the major adversary, the U.S. russia, China, we're all, I mean, you have to watch out for the proxy war, whether, whether you're behind the escalation or not. Taking advantage of those opportunities. India, Pakistan is, would be a, is, is something that China or, and, or Russia could both manipulate and turn into some sort of proxy fight that draws a lot of other countries in because that's where they want us to pay attention.

Erik Bamford [00:35:05]:
But again, going, going to the controversial end of, of the scale here. What if China in, in the Pakistan, India conflict now is the solution because they're a nuclear power. They have proximity. They will, they will suffer if it goes nuclear, that conflict. Maybe they should have the ownership of easing tensions, you know, so for once, maybe China is the solution and not the problem.

Ken Miller [00:35:28]:
Well, Eric, you just came up with a new episode that we will cover more in depth here on From the Crows' Nest. Thank you. Well, well, we, we, we are getting the sign here here at the exhibit hall on at AOC Europe that they are wr. And for those of you who listen to the show from the U.S. one of the fascinating aspects of traveling overseas is understanding how other cultures operate in Italy. They don't work past seven, so they want us out of the door here. So we are shutting everything down. So that, that's all the time that we have for today.

Ken Miller [00:36:01]:
Gentlemen, I really do appreciate you taking time to wrap up your day here with me From the Crows' Nest. Duncan, it's great. Been great to talk with you a couple times, Tom or love Tom and Eric. I love having you both on the show whenever and we have a few more topics here to cover in future episodes. So thank you so much for joining me.

Erik Bamford [00:36:16]:
Thank you very much, Ken. Super.

Ken Miller [00:36:19]:
Well, that will conclude this episode of From the Crows' Nest. I'd like to thank my guest Eric Bamford, Tom Withington and Duncan McCrory for joining me here from AOC 2025. We'll be back with our regular schedule next week with our subscription, but really appreciate everybody who is if you have time to come visit LinkedIn, the AOC page on LinkedIn. Follow us each day as we put up new segments and, and, and as well as talk about the show that's taking place this week, it's a great opportunity to understand what's happening around the world in ew. So that's it for today. Thanks for listening.