From the Crows' Nest

Ken Miller [00:00:09]:
Welcome to from the Crow's Nest. I'm your host, Ken Miller from the association of Old Crows. And greetings from Zurich, Switzerland. I am currently on vacation but wanted to still keep on schedule and join you here from from Europe. I also want to thank my guest today for joining me, retired U.S. army Colonel Kevin Finch. He also serves as an AOC board member. Kevin, thanks for joining me here on from the CR Nest.

Col Kevin Finch [00:00:35]:
Well, thank you, Ken. I appreciate it.

Ken Miller [00:00:37]:
So I, I wanted to have you on the show today because AOC 2025 in the US is coming up in December. It's a 9th to 11th in December. You played a key role in setting up the program, the agenda for the the summit portion. And so I wanted to come have you on the show to talk a little bit about the theme and why it's so critical that we have this conversation this year in 2026. And the theme of the summit is Charting a path to 2035 navigating the future of Electromagnetic Spectrum Operations. And it's a very unique title because you're looking at 10 years into the future and trying to figure out where we need to be and then of course, backtracking to where we are and setting that, what needs to be done across policy, technology, training, everything. So huge topic. And I wanted to have you on the show to kind of dissect that a little bit and talk about it.

Ken Miller [00:01:32]:
So to get started, my first question is basically having to do with the date 2035. Why is that date so important for the conversation in December?

finch [00:01:42]:
So the main reason is they passed legislation probably six or seven months ago and they set the top line numbers for the Department of defense through 2030. 2035. So that's the really what we're looking at here is like, hey, we know what the basic numbers are. And from that, you know, we can kind of interpolate like, hey, what, you know, what are the top line what's the amount of money the DoD is looking to spend over that, that period of time? And then from that, that's when all the planning starts. And so it'll be like, what's the future? The, the, the requirements community will start looking at like, hey, what does the, the future look like in 2035? What equipment do we need to emerging threats? And what do they think of the emerging threats are going to be? And so that's really what's driving that 2035 date.

Ken Miller [00:02:29]:
And of course, those top line numbers are just that they are across the board numbers. But MSO is oftentimes just a sliver of that from a requirements and funding standpoint. Yet in our conversations, you know, if we're for the, you know, those who join us week in and week out, you, they know ENSO is just an absolutely critical capability to bring to the fight because it's the first thing you need and it's there until the last thing. So how do we establish, given that top line, where we need to go in the MSO community and how do we then open up and compete against all the other requirements that of course, our military is chasing for a very, quite frankly, unstable world here, even in 2026?

finch [00:03:21]:
Yes, 100%. The bigger piece of this is the fact that electronic warfare, along with many of the other technologies, recent conflicts, has had everybody go back and really take a hard look at what the future looks like in that environment where you have this changing operational environment. The one thing that I will say is especially out if you see the conflicts, the recent conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle east, is the spectrum is playing very significant role in how these militaries prosecute their warfare. So during, actually during the recent AUSA conference, we had the Secretary of the army get up and say the electronic warfare is like one of his top priorities. And the reason being is that we are now everybody's come to not only the realization, but the reality is the control of the spectrum is one of the key tasks you have to do in modern warfare. And right now, if you look in Ukraine, for instance, that's very true, very every day. And it is definitely we've talked about cat and mouse games before, and it's definitely the cat and mouse game that we've seen, that we've talked about before, but we're seeing in real time. So it's a big change from the previous piece of it as well.

finch [00:04:48]:
And I will say the other part of it, especially for some of the services, is that they're really going back and relooking how they do electronic warfare. And that is getting a lot of traction in different circles. And so when you have the Secretary of the army, for instance, in the recent conference, get up and say it's one of his top priorities and they also want to have flexible funding in order to very quickly address different challenges. That's very encouraging for the future of electronic warfare and also very much of interest to AOC personnel.

Ken Miller [00:05:24]:
I want to talk a little bit about the shift in Geopol in the, in the geopolitical environment. But before I do that, you know, I want to talk a little bit about the army simply because your background is in the army and we, you went to asu, ausa, I was there. I did not hear any of the sessions, but I did see that the articles that came out from the, from the Secretary of the army, um, and it is clear that they have been. The army has been shifting its focus quite a bit a lot to terrestrial ew, some space and trying to make sure that particularly communications ew, those types of things are, are and they invest in those capabilities. In your background with the army, how have you seen the army shift its focus to EW over the years? And where do you think the army needs to continue to really focus their energy on, no pun intended, in order to get to the point they need to be, whether it's 2035 or another date with the EW capability to win the fight.

finch [00:06:29]:
Yeah, so, so the great question, and really from an army perspective, you know, when I was, you know, previously in the job, you know, holistically they looked at, you know, some very capable platforms, you know, terrestrial layer system and, and terrestrial system echelons above Brigade. You know, those were the, the main systems that were, you know, going when I, when I was there. And, and really they kind of holistically they were looking at a focus at brigade and above. I will say that there's definitely been a shift that I've seen, you know, just recently is to, you know, having more capability closer down to the soldiers. And so, you know, they've had a sift to Vampac and the, as far as like the organic EW system at the, at the units and then, and then starting to look at what I would call, you know, low cost, low swap attritable systems that provide, perform specific functions. And so the one thing that I would say that's really come out of the Ukraine is, is the, is the fact that if something's emitting, it's a target and if it's a target, it's likely to get destroyed. And so from that perspective there becomes a quality to quantity. And so from that perspective, the army's kind of holistically looking at a number of different capabilities that would be lower cost and also be able to be inserted in various different locations to not only sense the terrain but also do deception.

finch [00:08:04]:
And then also they're looking at high altitude balloon capability. So all these different things kind of tied together. It provides different vantage points for the army to be able to sense. But I would say the one big change that has happened is kind of a move away from large capital intensives of millions and millions of dollars to systems that have smaller swap type of footprints. It's probably the biggest thing that I've seen since I've left part of the.

Ken Miller [00:08:35]:
Story of the army over the last 25 years or at least the amount of time that I've been working in on the, on MSO issues. You know the military always has an organizing principle of how to, how they want to fight around the world. And you know with the war on terror that really changed how we thought about fighting what capabilities we need to bring to the field. And one of the great aspects of our military is bit that decentralized execution of the fight. We talk, we, I've called, I call it democratizing EW where the soldier on the ground can make those decisions and has that information that changed dramatically how we fought and then we're coming out of that. There's been other shifts in terms of what we need to do to win. Looking at the world today, you know you mentioned earlier Ukraine, there's a Middle east, we have indopacom that is constantly percolating and feels like it's about ready to, to, to erupt. And we know that even with China and some of the things that China has said they want to reunify with Taiwan and they're looking at 20, 27 or very around that time.

Ken Miller [00:09:49]:
And our efforts are of course try to push, move that to the right. When I was talking to someone a while back they always, they, they mentioned, I talked about how, how do you come up with that organizing principle? And one of the things they said, what they said, well there's the, there's the war that you plan for and then the war that you actually fight. And it's kind of the reality of once the start fighting starts you have to be ready to adapt very quickly because it's not going to go the way that you think it's going to go. We don't know exactly where our military has to go next, what capabilities the adversaries have, what proxy conflicts we might have to get involved with. So how can we become more adaptable in MSO and any capability really it affects everyone. How can we be more adaptable in a world that is so tenuous in terms of its global security?

finch [00:10:43]:
So I'll tell you something I used to tell my PMs back when I was, you know, 06:00pm we're not building a system for us today. We're building the system for 2pm from now. So we have to have the systems designed to be upgraded from the beginning. So from that perspective, you have to go back and look at some of the core kind of terms that we've talked about for years is modular open systems architectures. I was a big forefront of the CMOS back when I was 06, but those type of things allow systems to be upgraded rather quickly. And I'll say there's been even a step that's been taken farther since I was there. Was being able to rapidly reprogram, have the, you know, the right to, for soldiers to update the code in the system or update the threat libraries and then be able to do technique development. That, that's kind of the next step.

finch [00:11:39]:
But all that really, really gets back to the crux of what you're talking about is like, hey, how do we prepare not only for the war today, but for the war tomorrow? And it really just comes down to the fact that it's like, hey, we, when we design systems, you have to either have kind of one or two philosophies. The system has to be able to be upgraded to address emerging threats in near real time. The other thing of it too is you end up having kind of more of the Silicon Valley approach is where you're basically creating a continuing capabilities that keep on coming out the door, you know, on a rather quick basis, you know, designed for specific threats of that particular moment. But that, that means that you have to keep, you know, your industrial base warm and you have to keep the engineers engaged. You know, so there's a, there's a bunch that goes along with that, but you have to, you know, have somebody behind the soldier who's making sure that they have the equipment they need to prosecute that fight.

Ken Miller [00:12:38]:
I was talking to someone in the directed energy community and we were, we were discussing how to integrate more electronic warfare, traditional electronic warfare with directed energy, which, you know, depending on how you look at it, is within that broader MSO community. And we, we talked a lot. You mentioned, you mentioned, you know, software defined radios and software defined capabilities or rapid reprogramming another thing like spiral development where you can start to begin to ins. You, you get the minimal viable product out there and then you start to up develop that in the field or you be, you're able to insert new capabilities down the road without having to wait till the end when you have a final product. Because we were talking about certain systems that were like, hey, we'd like to be able to use this for directed energy. But the problem was the system was developed without thinking about the possibility of directed energy capability adding onto it. And so they had no ability, it was too late in the process and they had to get in earlier. So we have to get all those capabilities.

Ken Miller [00:13:39]:
You as a program manager, how do you, or how do you think the services should look at certain requirements where you, you don't want certain things to become what they call like a Christmas tree where a lot of different ornaments and bells and whistles that you don't need. But how do you, at that ground level, open up the aperture a bit to see what capabilities could we potentially include in this system down the road if we need it? So not to close the door on them, but not necessarily to statically design it today with it.

finch [00:14:15]:
Yeah, that's a great point. And really if you go back and look at some of the new acquisition pathways that have been introduced over the last probably six or seven, eight years at this point, you know, the software acquisition pathway kind of lends you down that path that you're kind of talking about being able to do that. Typically if you're in a PM shop, you'll have like, you'll start off a program with RDTNE and then you'll have a ramp up of procurement and then after two years you use operations and maintenance to sustain it. With the new software acquisition pathway, what I've been seeing is programs that are funded with RDT and EM procurement over the PhyDEP. And so what that really does, it allows the PM to address exactly what you're talking about being able to upgrade, upgrade that architecture over a period of time. And I will say with the new modern software practice, best practices, they're designed to be able to insert those new capabilities as they're needed over time. And you just have to realize from the beginning software is never finished. And there's going to be somebody with some great new idea that comes along down the road to do that.

finch [00:15:29]:
But then it also means for the hardware, you know, as the hardware capabilities progress, right, you need to be able to upgrade that software to take advantage of that change in the hardware as well. So that gets back to the whole MOSA approach. So it's not only having that hardware that you know is going to end up getting upgraded over time. And one of the great things that's coming out of industry is the fact that industry is doing a lot of these upgrades to these software defined radios that we were just talking about a little bit. And they're very, very capable. And you know, every time that there's a company that introduces a new chip that has increased processing speed or increased, you know, capacity or whatever. You know, the software engineers are able to go out there and take advantage of that as well.

Ken Miller [00:16:16]:
Now you, you've been out of the military for I think a couple years.

finch [00:16:21]:
About three years now.

Ken Miller [00:16:22]:
Three years now.

finch [00:16:23]:
Enough to grow.

Ken Miller [00:16:24]:
Go t. And you can, you can change the look a little bit now. You see, you're in, you're, you're in the private sector now you talk, you mentioned, you know, keeping defense industry warm, keeping it able to respond. And obviously the defense industry plays a huge role because of the private sector. So how do we. But you know, traditionally businesses pursued systems hardware and that's how systems were. Or companies were able to make money on the hardware. The software is so rapidly changing, new things happening.

Ken Miller [00:17:00]:
It's the software that's actually has a much lower ability to, for companies to, you know, make a profit off of that and from that regard. So it's the systems and that and that's how they're comp. Many companies are designed and they have to shift away from that and they are doing that. And then what changes in industry have. Do you see that industry needs to work on to make sure that they're in a place to be able to continue to develop an advanced technology via through software, still obviously bring in the revenue they need to, to keep working on the programs, but also to invest in new tech, the next generation of technology. How is industry adapting to this and what, what does industry need to do better or differently moving forward given where we want to be in 2035?

finch [00:17:53]:
Great question. Again, from that perspective. This is one of those aspects where it's just not only industry, it's also government. So people talk about commercial off the shelf and to a lot of people that means you can go down to Walmart and go buy it. But the reality of it is in a lot of cases that you know, a catalog item, very low density from that perspective or you know, like they're continuing to, to do, you know, improvements over, you know, certain aspects of their, of their, of their hardware. I will say, you know, having now been in industry, government cannot not telegraph enough and send it a demand signal for what they're asking for. That, that is what's going to get industry, you know, not, not only is like, hey, what are, what do you want? But how many of them are you looking to buy? You know, so that's the conversation that ends up happening. You know, what's going to be the return on investment for, for designing what you, you know, kind of what you, what you're asking for and you Know, the big thing is like, hey, having those industry days to, you know, communicate what you have, you know, having those meetings with industry as much, as much, as often as possible.

finch [00:19:09]:
One of my old bosses used to tell me, it's like, hey, Kevin, how many times does it take you to, you know, really something to really sink into your brain? And I was like, well, if it's, if it's me, probably three or four times, but if it's my kids, probably about 100 times. But he came back and he said, the average person, it takes seven times for them to hear before they get it. So my advice to the acquisition community is about the time you're sick of saying it is about when people are getting it. So from that perspective, I would say, you know, it's really that dialogue that needs to happen between industry and government to be able to forecast and telegraph what they're looking to do. I mean, the other piece of it as well, and I think the commercial solutions opening is really getting after this type of things. There's also people out there with great ideas that somebody in the government probably hasn't thought of in a certain way, shape or form. And those type of processes enable companies to come in and actually kind of show, hey, here's something I have that could be a dual use technology that I'm using for something else. But it makes sense.

finch [00:20:21]:
We think it makes sense. And then it may make sense or it may not make sense, but at least you're having the conversation and they're getting feedback. And so that's the other big piece of it too is once you do have that dialogue going, is giving feedback. And really that's what I, you know, personally, I think is, is the, the lubrication that keeps the machine running is that, you know, ongoing dialogue between the government and industry about what's important to them.

Ken Miller [00:20:46]:
And so, you know, you mentioned all of government. I think that's really important. You know, so looking over some of the speakers that you. We have coming in and we have that they do, we have speakers representing just about every aspect of this. We have industry, we have Army, Navy, Air Force, we have White House, we have Congress, we have. So I think that this would be this AOC US 25 in December is going to be a really critical time where a lot of these leaders from all these different branches and organizations and offices and so forth are in the same room. You know, let's kind of start to piece this out real quickly. I don't want to spend too much time on this, but you Know, let's start with like with the White House, just generally speaking, not, not, not specifically, just President Donald Trump.

Ken Miller [00:21:36]:
You know, we're talking 2035. We're going to see potentially two or three more presidents at, you know, between now and then. So how, what does the White House generally need to do to buy into this pathway to 2035?

finch [00:21:57]:
It really comes down to policy and, you know, for the president's budget, obviously, you know, telegraphing what they're looking to do. And for, you know, for the purposes of our symposium, it was very important us to get somebody who is, you know, kind of in the current know of what the current administration is looking at. We were very, very blessed to have Ms. Laurie Buckow, who is the former Assistant National Cyber Director for Policy at the White House, to come speak to us and actually be our opening speaker to kind of give the atmospherics of what the current administration's doing. And so, you know, the White House does set the tone. You know, it's part of the executive and you know, the Department of War is underneath there. So, you know, from that perspective, they are setting the tone. And so for us initially, you know, to start the conference, we are very, very much wanted to have that.

finch [00:22:46]:
And then for a keynote for the second day, there's also, you know, in our, is the legislature. And we're very blessed to have Representative Bacon come and talk to us. And if, you know, he's a retired brigadier general and he is probably the foremost expert of electronic warfare in Congress. So, you know, he provides an insight, you know, to the legislative bodies. And then the last day we have Lieutenant General Paul Stanton, who's the current commander of disa. And so from that perspective, he's given kind of like the more holistic joint force view of what's happening there. So we have some really awesome keynotes that are hitting the major silos of government. So we have the White House one day, we have the Congress the next, and then we have the operational force the final day.

finch [00:23:40]:
And I think it's a really great lineup setting up what we really looking to do in our spotlight panels and our breakout sessions.

Ken Miller [00:23:49]:
Yeah. And, and our listeners can go to aoc2025.org to look at the speakers. And there's, like I said, we have, there's a ton of speakers over the course of three days representing just about every branch just to, to kind of. And, and also I might want, I also ought to say use this opportunity to put in a plug because from the Crow's Nest is going to be at the show. And we're actually doing a live show on day two in the afternoon. And we're going to be discussing the topic of is it time to establish an MSO force? Which of course would bring in the. Would require working with all these components. But also we're, you know, it's going to be an open discussion and I'm going to have guests on the show that are for it, against it could go either way.

Ken Miller [00:24:40]:
And it all has to do with, as you mentioned, policy process, you know, the timing and so forth. And so we're going to start to dissect a lot of that stuff at the convention. So if you, I, I would encourage, you know, our listeners if, if you want to hear that, come, come to AOC 2025 because you can actually go to the exhibit hall and hear the show for free. But we encourage, I think you're going to miss a lot if you don't go to the symposium because this, our show is going to pull into a lot of that information and we're really looking forward to having, having that discussion. But I think that that kind of ties into it. Like, we have to kind of open up our minds a little bit and think what are some of the ideas that we haven't, that we've kind of tabled in the past that we really need to revisit? Because the world is changing so fast that the old organ, the old way of doing business doesn't work. And that's a, that's not easy when you're talking all of government to change all of those pieces in sync with one another to get to some place where you need to be 10 years down the road.

finch [00:25:43]:
Oh, definitely. And, and there's, there's many things happening that we're discussing and we have a great panel and it's actually, it's the Spotlight on day one. And we were lucky enough to get Major General retired Dave Gaetica, who was the, a former 16th Air Force Vice commander, to kind of give us that operational view of what he sees happening. We also have Mr. Bryant Clark, who's come in to talk about the, you know, kind of how he sees the requirements process changing. So, you know, from that perspective, you have like, in a big piece of it, you have, you know, the acquisition, you have the, the requirements and then you have the funding. And he's done a lot of work with the Speed act to kind of reimagine that part of the requirements, part of the process. And then we have Dr.

finch [00:26:41]:
William Conley, who's no stranger to AOC, who currently works at Mercury Systems as their CTO. And he's going to look at kind of the industry view from that. And then the one that I'm most excited about is Ms. Katie Arrington, who's performing the, the duties of the Chief Information Officer for the Department of War and she's introduced the SWIFT Act. The swift. And she's actually, by the time we get to the conference, we should have more information on what exactly that is. And I'm excited for her to kind of explain that. But one of the big challenges with getting new systems out to the field and that continual updates that were like you needed at the speed of war is the ability to get an ATO to actually operate them.

finch [00:27:26]:
So from that perspective, I think we have an all star panel to talk about from an operational perspective, like, hey, how quickly do I need something, a requirements perspective. Hey, how do we need the requirements process to work in order to provide the operational community what they need? Dr. Conley to talk about, hey, how can industry get more involved in that, to help facilitate industry providing those capabilities? And then Ms. Arrington is like, hey, how can we make sure the soldier's using them, you know, taking the proper precautions for cyber security and soldier, soldier safety? So from that perspective, I think we have an all star panel on that and that really starts hitting some of the major issues that we were going to talk about for the rest of the symposium.

Ken Miller [00:28:11]:
Just to wrap it up, last question we mentioned earlier, the army, obviously, the other services, the services have the responsibility to man, train and equip for the fight. It's the combatant commands that actually do the fighting. And then you have the civilian leadership in the Department of War that, you know, sets policy and funding and so forth from the service perspective across all services. We talked a little bit about the army, but what do the services need to do better to ensure that we have the enough people, the right people and have them trained sufficiently for that fight? When the COCOM say, hey, we have a situation, we need, we need to go to, we, we need to go to, to war. How do, can we ensure that the services are working together better? Especially on ew? I go around to a lot of places and the one thing I hear is we're not trained well enough. We're not, we don't have the right people in place. And if you have all the three services saying the same thing, you would think we could find a solution for all the three services. But it's, it's a challenge.

Ken Miller [00:29:24]:
So in Your eye in, in your mind, how can we get the services together and kind of lockstep given each of their areas of responsibility to make sure we have what we need from a manpower perspective for the fight.

finch [00:29:40]:
Yeah, from a manpower perspective, it's, you know, I think right now all the services have, you know, realized that, you know, electronic warfare is very important. If you go look at like, hey, what the Air Force has been, you know, sending out, you know, they just updated their compass call recently and are continuing to field that. You know, the Navy continues to update the electronic warfare on their surface fleets. You know, the biggest challenge that I will say that I've seen and we actually had, we had a panel on this last year is, you know, reprogramming. You know, and so one, one of the big challenges is, hey, if reprogramming for one may not necessarily work on another, you know, so a big piece of that is, you know, going back and having, you know, working groups that does, you know, interoperability. I'll give you an example of something that we did previously where all the servers had to work together. And it was for the crew, single manager. One of the big pieces of that was making sure that all the different crew systems use the common filter so that way, you know, communications could get through while we were still jamming the enemy.

finch [00:30:42]:
And we kind of step away from that. And oh, by the way, we had that problem again. So part of it's just, you know, having the commitment between the different services to actually, you know, have that agreement that hey, we were going to build stuff in the future that is able to be, you know, utilized cross service. I mean, it would be great if you built like, for like electronic warefare perspective. You know, it's kind of a hypothetical is, you know, if you end up having a, you know, a system that's, you know, like, hey, when you send out a technique or, you know, for, for a particular system that's able to work on across the fruited plan. So that's the issue. And, and I would say, you know, from a, you know, from a manpower perspective, and this is one of the challenges I think the, the services are going to have. You know, nobody's pure fleeted per se, you know, so like, you know, you're not going to see what's kind of in one unit, you may not see in another.

finch [00:31:37]:
And so from that perspective, you know, you're going to still, you're going to have these training challenges. But the, the biggest piece of it is, you know, from a manpower perspective, getting Back to your original question, like how do you make sure you have that manpower? Is that you have to, you know, make sure that they are continually being trained as a part of their, their cycle to make sure that they do have that ability. I will say as a former pm, one of the things that we always had to do was new equipment, fielding, new equipment, training, and it's a never ending process, especially when you start upgrading systems very regularly. So that's definitely a challenge that needs more attention. And actually we actually have a panel on that during the conference talking about recruitment and training to actually address that challenge that you're talking about. And it is definitely a sizable issue.

Ken Miller [00:32:33]:
Yeah. And as you said earlier, you know, it takes the average person seven times or so some to hear it until it sinks in. And that's I think, the key to why you need to constantly train. Even if you've already had the same training previously. Hear it again and look at it from a different perspective because each time you hear it, you, you're coming at it with a different perspective and you can actually, you know, challenge yourself a little bit more. So I think that understanding that like we shouldn't, it's, it's not enough to train someone at the beginning and let them go. You have to constantly bring them back in together to learn so that they can stay up on everything that's happening, technology wise, policy wise, whatever, and operationally so that they can adapt as well. Because it's not just the technology that's changing, it's also people are changing and we have to be able to use that technology.

finch [00:33:23]:
Definitely. And you end up having the Earlier I talked about the software acquisition pathway that allows you to continually upgrade the software. Right. I mean, we've all been there where you end up getting an update to, let's just use your Word package or not your Microsoft package of PowerPoint and what say, right. And the next thing you know, they're like, I know this button is in here somewhere. Where did it move to? I mean, we've all been there, right? But the reality of it is that, you know, when you update these systems, you know, some of the same challenges come back. I will say that the services are definitely getting more savvy with the soldier touchpoints and getting feedback from the field before they do these upgrades so they have the touch and feel that soldiers want. But you know, that is going to be one of the bigger, you know, over the next 10 years, especially as you see equipment getting fielded faster and you're not pure fleeting, you know, because you know, what you field in into paycom, not be what you field in eucom, for instance.

finch [00:34:24]:
And then you end up having a challenge of, you know, like, hey, they come from the same schoolhouse, but what about this equipment or that equipment? So a lot of that training is going to end up having to be, you know, pushed forward. You know, we do that now, but it's going to have to be more robust in the future. Great.

Ken Miller [00:34:41]:
Well, Colonel Finch, thank you so much for taking time to join me here on from the Crow's Nest. It's great to talk with you very much looking forward to AOC 2025 in the US and it's in National Harbor, Washington, just across the river from Washington, D.C. national Harbor, Maryland, December 9th to 11th. And if you want to learn out, learn more about the program, the speakers, the agenda, all the exhibitors, you, you go to aoc2025.org and we hope to see you in December. So thank you for joining me here on from the Crow's Nest.

finch [00:35:16]:
No problem. It's good talking to you again, Ken.

Ken Miller [00:35:18]:
That will conclude today's episode. I'd like to thank Colonel Finch for joining me here on the show. Also, as always, please take a moment to review, share and subscribe to the podcast. We always enjoy hearing from our listeners. And one last plug, do not forget, please check us out on YouTube as well as Instagram, Facebook as we try to post updates on a on a regular basis. We always enjoy hearing from our listeners. That's it for today. Thanks for listening.