From the Crows' Nest

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to From The Crows' Nest, a podcast on electromagnetic spectrum operations, or EMSO. I'm your host, Ken Miller, Director of Advocacy and Outreach for the Association of Old Crows. Thanks for listening. In this episode of From the Crow's Nest, I welcome current AOC President Glenn Carlson, call sign Powder, and Vice President and President Elect Brian Hinkley, call sign Hanks, onto the show to talk a little bit about the EMS community, a state of the union of the community, the Association of Old Crows, and get their perspective on what's going on in the world today. So with that, gentlemen, good morning. Thank you for joining me on From The Crows' Nest.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Good morning, Ken.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
By the time our listeners hear the show, it'll actually be the afternoon, but we'll roll with it here. For those of our listeners who might not be familiar with the AOC and how we work the leadership transition, Powder, you are nearing the end of your two year term and you are going to pass the baton to Hanks here at the end of October at our annual convention. And Hanks has been serving as Vice President during this past year of your term. So there's a smooth transition and one that would be very interesting to see in other settings. You both bring a wealth of experience and I think the operational background that you both bring to the table is very relevant both for the association today and kind of understanding what's going on in the world, particularly with Ukraine and so forth. So Powder, since you're the current President, I wanted to bring you on here real quickly to talk a little bit about your background, particularly the operational background you have and what that means in terms of preparing you for your term as president.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Thanks, Ken. Yes, was B-52 electronic warfare officer and actually when I entered service and started flying in the B-52, it was actually under strategic air command. So there was an awful lot there, especially with electronic warfare or electromagnetic warfare and EMSO today, but we didn't necessarily call it that.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And when did you start, What year was that?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, I actually entered the service in 1984 and started flying in B-52s in 1986, which was also the same year I joined the Association of Old Crows. And with those, the missions for Strategic Air Command obviously was a nuclear one and we were flying low level and we would fly... It was a deterrent mission. We had the Warsaw Pact and we had NATO and so we worked in those environments, but it was a pretty simple environment at the time. A lot of the radars were single frequency, all their parameters were single parameters. There was no dynamics, no changing frequencies or anything like that. Throughout my career, things evolved as well as the mission for B-52s. I was fortunate enough to be in a unit even under sack that had a conventional mission and a maritime mission. So we did an awful lot with the Navy as well as some even with the Army at that point. And then that became more to a forefront as their combat command took over.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
When was that? When did ACC take over?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
ACC took over in 1994.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
You were on B-52, it's a very interesting time of, in the mid eighties, obviously then the fall of the Soviet Union and the military transition that we undertook in the early nineties and some of the decisions that were made and of course impacted the B-52 operations as well.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Correct, yes. And when we deployed in 1990 for Desert Shield, after Iraq invaded Kuwait, our primary mission was low level strike. And after the first three nights of Desert Storm, that mission shifted to a high altitude because the ground fire, AAA, was more of a lethal threat than the missiles were at that point. And then the B-52s evolved to using that high altitude and have evolved from using general purpose weapons to precision weapons and getting communications upgrades, more so than electronic warfare upgrades. There wasn't a lot that was upgraded during my time on the B-52 due to the fact that the B-52 was going to go out of the service, was going to be retired. And obviously we know today that's changed. It's going to probably see its centennial with a new radar, new engines. They are updating the electronic warfare suite and actually going to go to a four person crew. When I first started flying, it was a six person crew, so things change.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
When did that enter service?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Well, first flight was on the 15th of April, 1952 and that was the YB-52. And then in June of 1955, the B-52A became operational and then in October of 1962, the final H model was delivered. And that's the current models we're flying today.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And it'll be in service now for at least another decade or so.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
It will be in service into the 2050s and beyond.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So a hundred years on that aircraft.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
But it's really been kind of an iconic platform for EW. I know when we first met early, in the early two thousands, it's been about 20 years now, when I worked for Congressman Joe Pitts, who was a B-52 EWO in Vietnam. So before you, you were able to share a lot of common stories of and experiences just from your operational experiences from the eighties and nineties to his in the sixties, which is a great connection to see. With that, I want to move over to Hanks for a bit. So Hanks, I wanted to bring you in on this because Powder, of course, Air Force, you have a deep history in the Navy on the EA-6B Prowler. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about your role? Because you played a very important role, particularly in the Prowler and the EW community in the early two thousands with Iraq and Afghanistan.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yeah, thanks, Ken. Well, not to bore anybody who's already had access to my bio, but I have been born and raised as an EW guy. Whether you call that electronic warfare or electromagnetic warfare, really since I earned my wings back in 1984, I served 27 straight years in EW related billets across aviation and surface domains. Primarily including, as you mentioned, EA-6B Command, that was 2000 to 2003, standing up at the crew, Joint Crew Composite Squadron 1, JCCS 1, in Iraq to help the Army and the Marine Corps defeat radio controlled IEDs. And then standing up the fleets first electronic warfare center in 2008. I retired in 2010 out of uniform and transitioned kind of as a baby step to the dark side out here. I've been responsible for EW and electromagnetic spectrum operations as a portfolio for [inaudible 00:06:58] and our legacy companies for over 12 years.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I wanted to bring up your operational background because in recent episodes of our podcast, we've talked a lot about current events, about what's going on in Russian Ukraine, and I've always appreciated the fact that AOC has had a lot of operational perspective, operational EW, EMSO perspective. And really when we talk about what's going on in Russian, Ukraine and around the world, the operational component is something that I think is very valuable that AOC brings to the table. So I wanted to get your thoughts on what you see happening currently, particularly over in Ukraine. Based on your experience, what lessons do you see US learning or needing to learn out of observing what's going on over in Europe?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Sure. Well, I think the most important part that we're learning is there's a lot more than just great weapons systems and platforms, and that's the people behind it. So in addition to our OODA loop, right? Observe, orient, decide, and act. We have a requirements process that is challenged to be able to sustain or even in some cases regain our capability advantage. I think where we really rely on our people as our greatest asset, it appears over in Ukraine, that's some of the Russian systems and platforms, the capability is there, but the training that goes behind it, the people that go behind it, the morale, the motivation, the understanding of how critical they truly are seems to be lacking. So as we go into new systems, our current capabilities and future capabilities, it's very, very important for us, in industry as well as in defense, to be able to say, let's focus on our people and let's make that a really important part, a key performance parameter, if you will, of future systems.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Powder.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
One is that, I know I come from the era where you wanted air dominance and we talk about EMS dominance. You need to be able to have superior or dominance in certain areas. There is no way that any one service country or even one conflict can have dominance over the entire spectrum at the time. So you need to be able to operate in those regions that you are equipped to and operate in those freely without interference. And that's a challenge because obviously, our adversaries and potential adversaries know where we want to operate. They know every system that we have that has an RF signature. Somebody's out there looking to find out what it is. It's just like what we're doing over the skies in Eastern Europe as we watch the Ukrainians and the Russians with RC-135s, Global Hawks, P-8s, EP-3s, other ground sensors, other airborne sensors. Sensing is one of the key pieces to be able to determine what that environment is and then determining how we want to operate in it and where we can operate and where it's best to operate.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
That's a great segue way. It's a great point because when we talk a lot about how quickly technology is evolving and the threat is evolving, we sometimes lose track of the role that the people and the training takes in successful EMSO. I wanted to kind of switch gears and talk a little bit about how is AOC addressing this issue of people in the EMSO community?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
One of the things that I was really pushing for and I continue to push for is the STEM, the education foundation. When the staff came up with the Future 5, we embraced that as well. And it's more than just the AOC, it's also industry. And I know for myself at BAE and I know what's going on all the other companies as well, is we realize that a lot of the expertise that has been around for electronic warfare and EMSO is nearing that retirement age on one of those. So there's a lot of attention to bring in STEM, to bring on new engineers, to engage with the schools, the cyber school, electronic warfare school or and whatnot down in Florida. So trying to focus in on some of those areas and getting more mentors, that was another program that was started and is trying to take hold, getting that moving forward as well.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
As you take control of the reigns, Hanks, what are some of the aspects or programs that you're excited about from AOC perspective that kind of help with this notion of really bringing in the right people to the EMSO community to navigate some of these future challenges?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I think our whole mission statement really, we started off by saying we provide value to our members and to our stakeholders, right? Really the focus of the AOC is really all about our membership. So I think it's important as we go forward to establish our identity, to really make sure that we're growing membership by offering folks a reason to join, whether they're from... In Europe, we're predominantly an industrial base, whereas in the US we have much more of a national defense and a military presence in our membership. But as we build advocacy, what we can do as a premier international organization is to interact with the leaders of industry, the leaders of national defense and the leaders in technology so that we can bring those folks together and really offer our younger Crows a tremendous network.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Looking back, kind of a state of the union over the course of the past two years, what are you most proud of passing on to Hanks in terms of the state of the AOC and what do you look forward to seeing continue to mature as time passes and AOC continues to grow?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I think one of the biggest things is that the AOC continues, like you mentioned, to be vibrant. It's relevant, especially with use of commercial, more commercial and civilian assets and capabilities across, whether it's in the military or across the civilian side. The fact that we have started programs and we've been working to grow, especially the Young Crows program, there's been some work done on awards. I can't say enough about the staff and the board. Hanks has actually been the Vice President for two years because I appointed him as the Vice two years ago before he was elected as the president elect. So he developed an excellent five year strategy that we're executing.
(14:09):
And so that's good continuity there. One of the other things as an association and we're financially sound, we've come through COVID stronger than we ever thought we would and we're actually larger today, even after than we were going into. So that speaks that to our relevancy and that people are looking for information and looking for knowledge and whatnot. More and more in-person events and hybrid events I think are going to be critical to the futures to keep that going.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
So I wanted to just touch on something you said. You know talked about a lot of the Young Crow designation, and that's an internal designation with the AOC, but there's a couple programs I know that AOC has really started over the last few years and the newest one is called the Future 5, and then there's also efforts to bring young engineers from Packs River up to our convention and we're hoping to expand that. Could you talk a little bit about this Future 5 program, because I think that that's an important access point for a lot of young engineers and young operators trying to figure out how to utilize AOC in terms of their professional development.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
With Future 5, basically we've reached out cross-industry, across academia, government in the military to find those folks that are probably going to be those future leaders and they apply and there's a board that goes over this year. We had a number of applicants for that. This is the inaugural year for it. One thing, we actually have a wide... We act the representation of those that one, cover most of those bases between being active duty and overseas to being in industry, just finishing up school and whatnot. I think one of the things that'll be neat to see hopefully in the future is that grow is into more of an international piece as well. Our international piece is one of those key parts of our organization and one of those things that we definitely have to make sure we are looking at and not just focusing on the US side.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
The AOC is undertaking the implementation of a five year strategy. The strategy was developed last year under your leadership, Hanks. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about the strategy and why it's going to be important for growing AOC over the next five years, but also so that we can better reach our stakeholders across government, industry, military, around the world?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
So Ken, as you know, you and I actually with a great team, worked on that five year strategy that Powder approved. And I think it's important in any business to have a strategy, have a five year strategy. We will be keeping that updated as we move, but the vision for the AOC remains consistent. We have to identify, everybody in the AOC needs to understand that we are the premier global professional association and what do we do? We advocate for them across defense and government, militaries, academia, and it's in our vision, but it all leads toward achieving and sustaining that military advantage in the electromagnetic operating environment. That's key.
(17:44):
Our strategy is really built on doing those things that will get us there, bringing together expertise, providing the networking for our folks and getting to the leadership. We have access because we are the AOC to leadership to be able to highlight the criticality of what it is that our members are working on in both military and industry. So I would say again that the strategy as far as growing our membership, building that advocacy, being smart because we are a business in the end about diversifying our streams of revenue to keep us a robust organization and really strengthen the organization overall, including our international presence and international programs.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
So last question here, posed to the both of you and Powder, we'll go first. What are some of the messages that you would like to take to our stakeholders in government, industry, military, here in the US and our partners and allies around the world in terms of what we need to continue to work hard on to advance EMS operations globally?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
First word that comes to my mind is collaboration and then communication and part of the communication is actually listening. I've seen it within industry. I've seen it as being the customer where one or the other will talk, but while they're listening, they're not necessarily really listening. And I think that's key is we see these events and being open to what's... The Russia, Ukraine is only one piece. Indopacom with China is another piece of where you're seeing an awful lot of the information side being utilized, especially by China. But being able to cross those lines, being open to communication across those academia, industry, government, military, and joining all those parties together to listen, talk with each other, communicate and define where there's opportunities to collaborate. Again, we've switched from where a lot of military technology pushes commercial and civilian technology, where now it's more civilian, commercial pushing the military technology.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And Hanks, any messages that you want to pass on as you begin your term as President here in a few weeks?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Well, I'd say again, Ken, the number one thing for us is advocacy and highlighting the criticality of EW. Unfortunately, it's often the last to be funded in peace time and the first to be funded when a crisis happens. People forget about how important it is when everything is going well. And so it does keep me awake at night. The next catastrophic event, maybe a cruise missile into the side of a surface ship or another event is what's going to take to increase the visibility. And I hope it's not that case. So I think as we look across the globe, it's definitely important. We want to focus, we want to build our international presence for the AOC. We're putting efforts into that. And when you talk about things like EMSO, it really doesn't care what color uniform you're wearing or what country you're in. We all rely on the electromagnetic spectrum as the one and only physical medium that all communication has to flow through.
(21:27):
So in the Navy, we combine several ratings and they all have to, Powder's word, collaborate in order to bring this to success. So I do think I agree with powder, he's set me up for success myself, stepping into the reigns. I very much appreciate that and I think we'll do a lot of collaboration to bring somewhat stove piped defense service members and from different career paths to bring them all together to kind of work this problem together.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
That is all the time that we have for today's episode. Powder and Hanks, I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedules to join me here on From The Crows' Nest and look forward to continuing talking with you here in the future.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Thanks, Ken.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Thank you, Ken.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Well, that will conclude this episode of From The Crows' Nest. If you're interested in learning more about the Association of Old Crows, please visit their website at crows.org. And as you've heard mentioned, their annual convention AOC 2022 is just around the corner at the end of October and you can learn more and register at 59.crows.org. Also, don't forget to review, share, and subscribe to this podcast. We always enjoy hearing from our listeners. You can visit the AOC page on LinkedIn or our Twitter account to submit questions and topics for future conversation. And of course feel free to share your thoughts and recommendations on the podcast. Thank you for listening.